metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's a pretty snide comment as the validity of any law isn't based on whether one keeps it.
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The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW
- Thread starter Porque77
- Start date
That's a pretty snide comment as the validity of any law isn't based on whether one keeps it.
CMike
Well-Known Member
No.
Why don't all the churches sell all their assests and give it to the poor?
That was the question.
CMike
Well-Known Member
You were there?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Scimitar
Eschatologist
Yes !
I've lived for over 4000 years - thanks for asking a stupid question...
... you should have asked, "how can you be so sure?"
I would have given you a lengthy answer - but that's a missed opportunity now isn't it?
Scimi
EDIT: btw, don't think that I am saying it's only the NT bible which has been messed with - the Jews themselves have the same problem with their OT.
As far as I am aware, the only holy book which has not been messed with, and has withstood the test of time - is the Muslims, Quran. But hey, that's another thread.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Yes !
I've lived for over 4000 years - thanks for asking a stupid question...
... you should have asked, "how can you be so sure?"
I would have given you a lengthy answer - but that's a missed opportunity now isn't it?
Scimi
EDIT: btw, don't think that I am saying it's only the NT bible which has been messed with - the Jews themselves have the same problem with their OT.
As far as I am aware, the only holy book which has not been messed with, and has withstood the test of time - is the Muslims, Quran. But hey, that's another thread.
I agree with you.
His question was impertinent; not polite one.
Regards
Porque77
The Gospel is God's Law
The commandments of Jesus Christ...
""The laws of the empires of the world must be respected... but the commandments of Jesus Christ, we must love... Do you follow the laws of atheists countries that not love Jesus Christ?... Do you follow religions called "Christians" who deny the Jesus Christ commandments?..."
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Please quote from Gospels for Jesus having made this commandment. He never commanded it. It is faked by the Church.
Regards
outhouse
Atheistically
outhouse
Atheistically
Cant argue that, but its not a nice way to state something here, even if it is correct.
It is still against forum rules
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that Christ is a scribe that changed some commandments? Are you saying that the new testament is completely unreliable? Why would it be different than the old in reliability?
I agree that things are sometimes altered -I'm just not sure I get your point.
First, there are commandments, statutes and judgments -and there were judges to apply them to various cases.
The ten commandments were literally written in stone -and are figuratively "written in stone".
Other things UNDER the commandments -judgments, etc. are dependent upon certain things and situations, such as divorce being allowed in the old testament. The commandments remained, but the rest concerned how to deal with people who broke the commandment in various situations.
Likewise, Christ -having more authority than Moses -as he was the one wrote the commandments in stone -was the Word -was I AM -was Melchizedek, etc., did not change the law -but did change judgments concerning how to deal with people who broke the law -and even made some judgments more lenient and some more strict.
Judgments under the law were turned by Christ from how to deal with others who committed sin -and more toward how to deal with one's own sins (knowing that the spirit of God would become more widely available -enabling people to obey God in spirit as well as letter).
The judgments changed because it was time that they did according to the overall plan of God.
This is why it is said that no new covenant would be needed if the first had been perfect.
It had not been meant to be perfect -it was meant for the situation which existed at the time -in order to prepare a people to receive the second covenant at the appropriate time.
The first covenant was the groundwork for the second.
For example....
Joh 8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
So, the people became more concerned with THEIR OWN conscience rather than the sin of the woman.
Why did Christ write on the ground with his finger? Twice? Was he doodling?
Christ -who was the Word -was I AM -was Melchizedek, etc., -and whose finger wrote the commandments in stone, certainly had the authority to change judgments under the law.
He did NOT change "the law".
(Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..........
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.)
Some things have been added to scripture (Easter replacing the word for Passover, etc.).
Some things have been added to the law/the law has been supplanted by some things (Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.)
Christ spoke against such things.
He taught the keeping of the ten commandments -including weekly Sabbath and the holy days given by God in the old testament (which were kept by the new testament church -including gentiles)
However, he did change judgments -not the law -so the new testament record of such would not be an example of "the lying pen of the scribes"...... if that's what you were saying.
I agree that things are sometimes altered -I'm just not sure I get your point.
First, there are commandments, statutes and judgments -and there were judges to apply them to various cases.
The ten commandments were literally written in stone -and are figuratively "written in stone".
Other things UNDER the commandments -judgments, etc. are dependent upon certain things and situations, such as divorce being allowed in the old testament. The commandments remained, but the rest concerned how to deal with people who broke the commandment in various situations.
Likewise, Christ -having more authority than Moses -as he was the one wrote the commandments in stone -was the Word -was I AM -was Melchizedek, etc., did not change the law -but did change judgments concerning how to deal with people who broke the law -and even made some judgments more lenient and some more strict.
Judgments under the law were turned by Christ from how to deal with others who committed sin -and more toward how to deal with one's own sins (knowing that the spirit of God would become more widely available -enabling people to obey God in spirit as well as letter).
The judgments changed because it was time that they did according to the overall plan of God.
This is why it is said that no new covenant would be needed if the first had been perfect.
It had not been meant to be perfect -it was meant for the situation which existed at the time -in order to prepare a people to receive the second covenant at the appropriate time.
The first covenant was the groundwork for the second.
For example....
Joh 8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
So, the people became more concerned with THEIR OWN conscience rather than the sin of the woman.
Why did Christ write on the ground with his finger? Twice? Was he doodling?
Christ -who was the Word -was I AM -was Melchizedek, etc., -and whose finger wrote the commandments in stone, certainly had the authority to change judgments under the law.
He did NOT change "the law".
(Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..........
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.)
Some things have been added to scripture (Easter replacing the word for Passover, etc.).
Some things have been added to the law/the law has been supplanted by some things (Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.)
Christ spoke against such things.
He taught the keeping of the ten commandments -including weekly Sabbath and the holy days given by God in the old testament (which were kept by the new testament church -including gentiles)
However, he did change judgments -not the law -so the new testament record of such would not be an example of "the lying pen of the scribes"...... if that's what you were saying.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Tali018
Member
fwiw the Christian OT is not the same as the Jewish Tanakh. The Christians did many changes, additions, deletions and transliterations to create a book that was inline with their religion. They have made such a mess of it that there are numerous versions of it and the words don't match up to other versions. Now the Tanakh (where there is only one version) has one main rule in common with the Quran; It must be able read and understood in its original language so there is no loss in translation.
Miss me?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Quran is read in the original Arabic text aloud as G-d has commandedto recite it:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 73: Al-Muzzammil
[73:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[73:2]O thou who art bearinga heavy responsibility,
[73:3]Stand upin Prayerat night except a small portion thereof —
[73:4]Half of it, or make it a little less than that
[73:5]Or make it a little more than that — and recite the Qur’an slowly and thoughtfully.
[73:6]Verily, We are charging thee with a weighty Word.
[73:7]Verily, getting up at night is the most potent means of subduingthe selfand most effective in respect of wordsof prayer.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
And it really effects and touches one's soul.
There is no commandment like this in the Torah.
Meanings of Quran could be understood from the context of the verses with the help of translations in any language. Etymology of the Arabic words helps to understand the deep meaning of the verses, if needed.
Regards
Tali018
Member
Sorry I feel that your post is in error. Translation from Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew into English is not helpful in understanding certain writings. All it does is give one a version that the English translator thinks is right for the reader and adds in the thinking of himself as done in the past by scribes. I am not going to sit here and list here surah/hadith and compare them in some way to Tanahk/Talmud. I'll leave you some links to go over. They may not be perfect to cover my point by their essence does.
73. Surah Al Muzzammil (The One Who is Covered Up) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an
Jewish Daily Prayers
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
These verses are all pertaining to the oral traditions of Pharisees/Orthodox. The Torah is still perfect imho.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Tali018
Member
Sorry, But I will not be baited into flaming into a religious confrontation on what and what is not written nor will I get into a which religion is better confrontation. This thread is about scribes and IMHO includes translators and their mistranslations due to having their own agenda or not having a complete understanding of the dialect used in its original country. Once a line is translated and words have been changed to make it easier to read, then it has been changed. The Quran is to be read in Arabic and translated by oneself in order for there to be no loss. The Tanahk is to be read in Hebrew/Aramaic and translated by oneself in order for there to be no loss. I have included links is my past post and those will suffice.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
You may have your own opinion. Never-mind.
Regards
Regards