Which path is truly "bad"?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Looking at the track record of humanity seems to be a pretty good indication, from my perspective at least, that we aren't doing too well on our own.

And for the last 2,000 years, we've been living under an Abrahamic hegemony and followers of Abrahamic religions make up over half of the human population. So whose fault is it? Christians and Muslims committed genocide all around the planet, wiping out the indigenous cultures of much of the world which has left us with not too many other alternatives and what little is left has been poisoned by Christians so we don't really know what the actual cultures believed since many of them relied on oral traditions that have been wiped out.

Time to take out that mirror and give it a long, hard look.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Hail Satan! Hail ThySelf!

Seriously, I was a Catholic for a time. It clouds your mind and you develop such a strong emotional attachment to it that it binds you to it, so that it's hard and even painful to see the truth of it. The Bible god is evil. Jesus probably didn't exist as a historical person, although his story could be salvaged if it's disconnected from the evil OT and that "savior" and human sacrifice nonsense is stripped from it and it's taken as a narrative of spiritual ascension that all humans can attain. Followers of Hellenismos do much the same with figures like Orpheus and the Heroes. They're examples to be followed, not "saviors" to blindly follow. Gnostic Christianity is a better choice than all the others.

I almost had a breakdown when I left Islam. Christianity was easy though as it held up to no amount of intellectual commonality. I could not be rational and a Christian at the same time and I concluded this at a very young age trying to reconcile the Bible.
Gnostic Christianity is very smart in that it accepts the nature of myth as myth often time instead of universal truth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I almost had a breakdown when I left Islam. Christianity was easy though as it held up to no amount of intellectual commonality. I could not be rational and a Christian at the same time and I concluded this at a very young age trying to reconcile the Bible.
Gnostic Christianity is very smart in that it accepts the nature of myth as myth often time instead of universal truth.

Christianity has become deeply embedded into our cultural psyche. It's like a bad drug habit. It's insidious and hard to break, since it's pull is emotional and not intellectual. The people who formed it were master at propaganda and mass psychology. They really knew how to do a number on the human heart and mind.

 

[InChrist]

And for the last 2,000 years, we've been living under an Abrahamic hegemony and followers of Abrahamic religions make up over half of the human population. So whose fault is it? Christians and Muslims committed genocide all around the planet, wiping out the indigenous cultures of much of the world which has left us with not too many other alternatives and what little is left has been poisoned by Christians so we don't really know what the actual cultures believed since many of them relied on oral traditions that have been wiped out.

Time to take out that mirror and give it a long, hard look.

No, I think we have been living under the impact of sinful human nature in combination with organized religion/politics which is always self-centered, corrupt, and deadly. This is totally different than living in loving relationship with the Creator and putting others first. Very few, in the big scheme of things through history have lived in humility before God, certainly not those in positions of power.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I think we have been living under the impact of sinful human nature in combination with organized religion/politics which is always self-centered, corrupt, and deadly. This is totally different than living in loving relationship with the Creator and putting others first. Very few, in the big scheme of things through history have lived in humility before God, certainly not those in positions of power.

Nah, they were just following the good example of the Israelites when Yahweh commanded them to commit genocide against the followers of other gods. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for Yahweh's modern fan club!

 

[InChrist]

Nah, they were just following the good example of the Israelites when Yahweh commanded them to commit genocide against the followers of other gods. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for Yahweh's modern fan club!

Sorry. no go. The events in the OT involving Israel were for a specific reason and time in history and not applicable to everyone, anywhere or at anytime. Jesus specifically said to love your enemies. So anyone doing differently was and is not following, but opposed to Christ.

 

[1137]

Unless of course, it is true that we don't have the necessary power and strength and we do need to be saved by an outside source then it wouldn't be bad or shameful, but good to know and be aware of such important information.

How would we ever know? All the things we've created to aid us originate inside. Anything in the world we've utilized is based on an internal idea. All religious concepts such as deities originate in the human mind as archetypes that simply vary from culture to culture. The external universe tries to kill us constantly in millions of ways that are not our fault at all.

Concepts like original sin and similar creations are like an increasingly intense depression and disease in the collective unconscious of humanity. From birth we teach children that man is weak, responsible for suffering in the world, a disgusting beast who deserves abandonment and is only loved because god is nice enough to do so. We do it as religion and somehow it's fine, but tell your child that he's responsible for mommy's asthma and daddy losing his job - all while telling him he deserves an eternal *** beating and is lucky you don't abandon him in a dumpster - and child protective services with be there so fast you won't know what hit you.

 

[1137]

No, I think we have been living under the impact of sinful human nature in combination with organized religion/politics which is always self-centered, corrupt, and deadly. This is totally different than living in loving relationship with the Creator and putting others first. Very few, in the big scheme of things through history have lived in humility before God, certainly not those in positions of power.

Further evidence of the self-loathing depression eating away at humanity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sorry. no go. The events in the OT involving Israel were for a specific reason and time in history and not applicable to everyone, anywhere or at anytime. Jesus specifically said to love your enemies. So anyone doing differently was and is not following, but opposed to Christ.

We already know that Christians have a bizarre view of "love" what with that "love the sinner, hate the sin" bs. The early Christians were not tolerant and loving people. They were fanatics who went around pillaging and destroying Hellenic temples, murdering people (Hypatia ring a bell?) and banning and destroying books. In every era of Christianity, we find this sort of behavior towards views and people who are different. There is not one point in time during the history of Christianity that Christians weren't oppressing and attacking people somewhere in the world. Even Jesus went around insulting and threatening people who didn't agree with him.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I do not know if it is just me but it seems that the Bible is a guidance for immorality and the only way to justify is it use immorality to look moral.

Plenty of contradictions in what I just said there

 

[InChrist]

How would we ever know? All the things we've created to aid us originate inside. Anything in the world we've utilized is based on an internal idea. All religious concepts such as deities originate in the human mind as archetypes that simply vary from culture to culture. The external universe tries to kill us constantly in millions of ways that are not our fault at all.

I've asked that question before and the answer I have is that we only know through outside revelation from the Creator. That makes complete sense to me anyway.

Concepts like original sin and similar creations are like an increasingly intense depression and disease in the collective unconscious of humanity. From birth we teach children that man is weak, responsible for suffering in the world, a disgusting beast who deserves abandonment and is only loved because god is nice enough to do so. We do it as religion and somehow it's fine, but tell your child that he's responsible for mommy's asthma and daddy losing his job - all while telling him he deserves an eternal *** beating and is lucky you don't abandon him in a dumpster - and child protective services with be there so fast you won't know what hit you.[/quote]

I don't know where you are getting your ideas. Who teaches their child they are responsible for all the suffering of the world or even mom and dad's problems? The scriptures while honestly showing the sinful condition of human nature are also adamant in presenting the value of human life created in the image of God.

 

[InChrist]

Further evidence of the self-loathing depression eating away at humanity.

Satan humiliates, God humbles. There is a huge difference.

 

[Thana]

We already know that Christians have a bizarre view of "love" what with that "love the sinner, hate the sin" bs. The early Christians were not tolerant and loving people. They were fanatics who went around pillaging and destroying Hellenic temples, murdering people (Hypatia ring a bell?) and banning and destroying books. In every era of Christianity, we find this sort of behavior towards views and people who are different. There is not one point in time during the history of Christianity that Christians weren't oppressing and attacking people somewhere in the world. Even Jesus went around insulting and threatening people who didn't agree with him.

You're kind of forgetting that Christians are not just Christians, They're people. And people will use religion to further their ideals. They'll use religion as an excuse. And people are typically, jerks.

So we're talking about people, Not religion. The bible doesn't promote anything immoral, In fact, It's very clear about immorality.
You may twist it, as fundamentalists twist it, But that does not diminish it or God.

Jesus went around insulting and threatning people? Please provide scripture of this, And not the one about the tax man.

 

[InChrist]

Even Jesus went around insulting and threatening people who didn't agree with him.

If you're thinking about when He cast the moneychangers out of the temple, then should realize that He was removing corrupt and greedy people who were taking advantage of others using religion...just the thing you are ranting about.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're kind of forgetting that Christians are not just Christians, They're people. And people will use religion to further their ideals. They'll use religion as an excuse. And people are typically, jerks.

Well, then what use is religion? Especially when they do those things in the name of said religion? If they can find support for their disgusting deeds and views in their religion, then there's obviously something wrong with the religion itself.

So we're talking about people, Not religion. The bible doesn't promote anything immoral, In fact, It's very clear about immorality.
You may twist it, as fundamentalists twist it, But that does not diminish it or God.

That's such a lie. Go read that Evil Bible site and the Skeptics Annotated Bible:
Evil Bible Home Page
Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon

Jesus went around insulting and threatning people? Please provide scripture of this, And not the one about the tax man.

He called people fools, blind, devils, etc. and threatened people with hell and destruction. He is the reason that Christianity has the teaching of eternal hell in the first place. Have you ever even read the gospels?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you're thinking about when He cast the moneychangers out of the temple, then should realize that He was removing corrupt and greedy people who were taking advantage of others using religion...just the thing you are ranting about.

No, I'm not talking about that.

 

[InChrist]

That's such a lie. Go read that Evil Bible site and the Skeptics Annotated Bible:
Evil Bible Home Page
Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon

No one really thinks the skeptics annotated bible is an accurate and legitimate source, do they?

He called people fools, blind, devils, etc. and threatened people with hell and destruction. He is the reason that Christianity has the teaching of eternal hell in the first place. Have you ever even read the gospels?

[/quote]

He called the religions leaders of the day fools and devils because they were keeping people in bondage to religious customs and laws which were man made and had nothing to do with living in reality and relationship with God.

 

[1137]

I've asked that question before and the answer I have is that we only know through outside revelation from the Creator. That makes complete sense to me anyway.

The concept can make perfect sense, sure. The problem is there is no example you could provide of this happening in history - because it hasn't. All we have are books written by men randomly guessing at the nature of a theoretical deity and experiences biasely interpreted by people who do not understand the nature of the mind.

I don't know where you are getting your ideas. Who teaches their child they are responsible for all the suffering of the world or even mom and dad's problems? The scriptures while honestly showing the sinful condition of human nature are also adamant in presenting the value of human life created in the image of God.

It is called a metaphor. This is exactly what you are doing when you continuously feed your child the idea that they cannot stand on their own, they are weak, they are fallen, their natural desires are evil, humanity is in a state of sin, there is a constant danger of eternal suffering, etc etc etc.

Satan humiliates, God humbles. There is a huge difference.

And you get this... where? God is the one who pushes the idea of sin on us. He tells us completely natural urges are evil, he tells us we are responsible for our own suffering, he tells us we are weak. Satan tells us that we have internal strength and reminds us that this life is all we have - that we should live it to our fullest. He never encourages anything immoral unlike god who constantly commands murder, hatred, etc.

You're kind of forgetting that Christians are not just Christians, They're people. And people will use religion to further their ideals. They'll use religion as an excuse. And people are typically, jerks.

So we're talking about people, Not religion. The bible doesn't promote anything immoral, In fact, It's very clear about immorality.
You may twist it, as fundamentalists twist it, But that does not diminish it or God.

Jesus went around insulting and threatning people? Please provide scripture of this, And not the one about the tax man.

Religion is of the people, it is not some separate "relgion" from humanity. Without religion there is no humanity. I also do not see how you can call the bible wholly moral. First off it teaches us to judge out-groups, to egotistically assume our beliefs are objectively correct, things of that nature. Go in further and we have things such as stoning, suffering, hating, and the like. Have you ever even read Leviticus?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No one really thinks the skeptics annotated bible is an accurate and legitimate source, do they?

Is the Bible real?

He called the religions leaders of the day fools and devils because they were keeping people in bondage to religious customs and laws which were man made and had nothing to do with living in reality and relationship with God.

That is still insulting people. There's nothing "loving" about that. That's a person with a bad temper insulting people who disagree. If he did on that this forum, he'd get an infraction against him!

Furthermore, that "devil" verse is one of the roots of Christian antisemitism.

 

[InChrist]

The concept can make perfect sense, sure. The problem is there is no example you could provide of this happening in history - because it hasn't. All we have are books written by men randomly guessing at the nature of a theoretical deity and experiences biasely interpreted by people who do not understand the nature of the mind.



It is called a metaphor. This is exactly what you are doing when you continuously feed your child the idea that they cannot stand on their own, they are weak, they are fallen, their natural desires are evil, humanity is in a state of sin, there is a constant danger of eternal suffering, etc etc etc.



And you get this... where? God is the one who pushes the idea of sin on us. He tells us completely natural urges are evil, he tells us we are responsible for our own suffering, he tells us we are weak. Satan tells us that we have internal strength and reminds us that this life is all we have - that we should live it to our fullest. He never encourages anything immoral unlike god who constantly commands murder, hatred, etc.



Religion is of the people, it is not some separate "relgion" from humanity. Without religion there is no humanity. I also do not see how you can call the bible wholly moral. First off it teaches us to judge out-groups, to egotistically assume our beliefs are objectively correct, things of that nature. Go in further and we have things such as stoning, suffering, hating, and the like. Have you ever even read Leviticus?

Thanks for expressing your thoughts. I always appreciate reading your perspective even though mine is different. I would respond, but I'm so tired and need some sleep. So have a good night.