"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[metis]

The Temple sacrifices were a form of repentance not the form of repentance. If one has a concordance, look up "forgive" and its variations, and they can see that according to Torah one can go directly to God without these sacrifices for forgiveness.

 

[arcanum]

The Temple sacrifices were a form of repentance not the form of repentance. If one has a concordance, look up "forgive" and its variations, and they can see that according to Torah one can go directly to God without these sacrifices for forgiveness.

Ok what was the purpose of animal sacrifice during the second temple period? What purpose did it serve to have a priest make a sacrifice on one's behalf?

 

[metis]

Ok what was the purpose of animal sacrifice during the second temple period? What purpose did it serve to have a priest make a sacrifice on one's behalf?

For the forgiveness of communal/familial sins, which also can be forgiven through us praying to God for our forgiveness, which is the major theme on Yom Kippur. This form made sense to us as a people who were sustained by raising animals but has become less emphasized today, the indication of which is that we not only have not rebuilt the Temple, but even if we did there's no guarantee that we would return to the sacrificial system.

 

[Desert Snake]

For the forgiveness of communal/familial sins, which also can be forgiven through us praying to God for our forgiveness, which is the major theme on Yom Kippur. This form made sense to us as a people who were sustained by raising animals but has become less emphasized today, the indication of which is that we not only have not rebuilt the Temple, but even if we did there's no guarantee that we would return to the sacrificial system.

Do you have any verses to back this up? The forgiveness idea?

 

[metis]

Do you have any verses to back this up? The forgiveness idea?

I don't have time to go through these to sort them out, but...: Bible, Revised Standard Version

and you might check this out as well: Bible, Revised Standard Version

 

[Desert Snake]

O.k. a brief look seems to affirm that..

 

[metis]

Also, one might be interested in this from Judaism 101:

How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?

Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and tzedakah (charity or other good deeds).

In Jewish practice, prayer has taken the place of sacrifices. In accordance with the words of Hosea, we render instead of bullocks the offering of our lips (Hosea 14:3) (please note: the KJV translates this somewhat differently). While dedicating the Temple, King Solomon also indicated that prayer can be used to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50). Our prayer services are in many ways designed to parallel the sacrificial practices. For example, we have an extra service on Shabbat, to parallel the extra Shabbat offering. For more information about this, see Jewish Liturgy. As we shall see, the purposes for bringing sacrifice are very similar to the purposes for prayer.

It is important to note that in Judaism, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness. This will be discussed further below.

But isn't a blood sacrifice required in order to obtain forgiveness?

No. Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all. The Biblical book of Jonah tells of an entire community condemned to destruction that was forgiven when they simply repented and fasted, without ever offering any sacrifice, blood or otherwise. (Jonah 3)

The passage that people ordinarily cite for the notion that blood is required is Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." But the passage that this verse comes from is not about atonement; it is about dietary laws, and the passage says only that blood is used to obtain atonement; not that blood is the only means for obtaining atonement. Leviticus 17:10-12 could be paraphrased as "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood." -- Judaism 101: Qorbanot: Sacrifices and Offerings

 

[Desert Snake]

Hmm thanks.. yeah no need to convince me of anything lol, I don't have a theological chip on my shoulder.

 

[metis]

Hmm thanks.. yeah no need to convince me of anything lol, I don't have a theological chip on my shoulder.

You're welcome, and take care.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Christians have always had a problem reconciling Jesus death, and have trawled the Old testament to find precedents and prophecies to justify not just his death but his acceptance of it.
We have made equal efforts to make a connection between his death and the forgiveness of sin.
At no time has the Christian faith encouraged sacrifice for sin, except in the form of self sacrifice and self mortification, especially in the middle ages. However the Early church in transition from the Jewish faith, does not mentions the concept at all in the Didache.

I do not believe that Jesus did "Die for our sins" but his death was a final act of love to confirm and teach us how far we should be prepared to go for God and our fellow men.
The Saints, members of the early church, certainly understood this and would prefer to die rather than deny their faith.
Jesus whole life and death was a ministry to teach us how to love God and each other.

I find this a far more believable concept than the usual construct, based on original sin, Adam and Eve and the need for sacrifice, for the forgiveness of sin.

Christians have no need of substitutional theology to find a path to forgiveness... Forgiveness is personal, in the same way sin is. God's mercy is assured. Prayer, repentance, faith and the guidance of the Holy Spirit will lead one to God's forgiveness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For the forgiveness of communal/familial sins, which also can be forgiven through us praying to God for our forgiveness, which is the major theme on Yom Kippur. This form made sense to us as a people who were sustained by raising animals but has become less emphasized today, the indication of which is that we not only have not rebuilt the Temple, but even if we did there's no guarantee that we would return to the sacrificial system.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're implying that animal sacrifice was done because, an agrarian society, animals were a form of wealth... right?

... which implies that even when animals were sacrificed, it wasn't that you were supposed to sacrifice just any animal, but one of *your* animals.

I find this interesting, since if ownership is a part of this sacrifice, then considering Jesus to be a sacrifice also implies considering him - a human being - as property.

 

[Father Heathen]

This is according to Hebrews 9:22 which Conservative Christians point to as a reason Jesus had to die on the cross.

But there was plenty of forgiveness going on in the OT without the shedding of blood. People obtained forgiveness with a food offering. During the Exodus, God forgave the Israelites numerous times without asking for a sacrifice.

In the OT, animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins and special situations such as defiling the temple. If animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins, I don't how God would go from there to Jesus had to shed his blood for the sins of the world.

How can something be a "sin" if it was unintentional or accidental? Also, why would an understanding and merciful god require blood and death? What precisely does that sate?

 

[idav]

We see in the story that god is a carnivore since he rejected the vegetable sacrifices pretty early on, he may be some sort of vampire.

 

[Tumah]

We see in the story that god is a carnivore since he rejected the vegetable sacrifices pretty early on, he may be some sort of vampire.

Nope
1
2

 

[Thief]

AH!...someone noticed!

Cain and Abel were making sacrifice!

But I never noticed why......

 

[Desert Snake]

AH!...someone noticed!

Cain and Abel were making sacrifice!

But I never noticed why......

All I know, is meat sacrifice was better there, lol....I really need a Bible/(don't have one right now)

 

[viole]

How can something be a "sin" if it was unintentional or accidental? Also, why would an understanding and merciful god require blood and death? What precisely does that sate?

I think that the "shedding blood" salvation myth is a post-hoc rationalization, probably motivated by the cognitive dissonance induced by seeing the alleged savior and master die on a cross.

- Our Messiah died.
- Oops, He was not the Messiah, then
- Yes, He was, He needed to die because of this and that.
- Good, for a moment I thought I may heve been wrong all along.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Desert Snake]

I think that the "sheding blood" myth is a post-hoc rationalization, probably motivated by the cognitive dissonance induced by seeing the alleged savior and master die on a cross.

Oops, our Messiah died. So, He was not the Messiah. Yes, He was, He needed to die because of this and that.

Ciao

- viole

While were speculating, I think Santa wrote the NT. In Iceland.

 

[viole]

While were speculating, I think Santa wrote the NT. In Iceland.

Well, no. For two reasons.

1) Santa is Swede
2) He cannot have been possibly be victim of a cognitive dissonance. This applies to eye witnesses only.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, no. For two reasons.

1) Santa is Swede
2) He cannot have been possibly be victim of a cognitive dissonance. This applies to eye witnesses only.

Ciao

- viole

It's funny how the crucifixion narrative strikes such a nerve.