"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[Agnostic75]

We don't believe in hell as such. According to the Bible, hell is the grave.

And death is the final judgement....so if you go to the grave, that's it, you've paid for your sins and there is no more to be judged for.

No, the Bible says:

Matthew 26:24

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

That was about Judas, and Judas would have to raised from the dead in order to be punished.

Revelation 14:9-11

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

You are obviously wrong.

At The changing Watchtower interpretation of Bible Prophecy, there is an article that shows that Jehovah Witnesses have frequently changed how they interpret the Bible. The article mentions another article at Core Watchtower Teachings that also shows that Jehovah Witnesses have changed how they interpret the Bible.

Jehovah Witnesses also falsely claim that a global flood occurred.

At http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/wat...common-ancestor-Watchtowers-view#.U3_U5yxOVxA, the Watchtower Society dishonestly quote mines what some experts have said about creationism. The article uses Gordon, Bapteste, and Raup as sources to try to discredit common descent, but all three men actually support common descent.

 

[Pegg]

No, the Bible says:



That was about Judas, and Judas would have to raised from the dead in order to be punished.

death is the punishment for sin.

Adam was told that in the day he disobeyed Gods law, he would die.

Death is punishment.

Jehovah Witnesses also falsely claim that a global flood occurred.

At Has all life descended from a common ancestor? Watchtowers view (1), the Watchtower Society dishonestly quote mines what some experts have said about creationism. The article uses Gordon, Bapteste, and Raup as sources to try to discredit common descent, but all three men actually support common descent.

We believe what the bible writers report. And if you look for it, there is evidence of a world wide flood.

Regarding scientists quoted in our articles, we are only repeating their own misgivings about evolution. We dont claim that these scientists do not believe in evolution.... we are showing that even in their own writings they admit that certain aspects of it dont seem to fit with the physical evidence.

 

[CMike]

the body IS the soul according to the teachings of God as found in the Torah.

But the teaching that the soul is distinct from the body comes from Plato...a greek philosopher.

I think i'll believe what God says on the matter seeing he is the one who created us. I think he knows, dont you?

You have got it wrong.

The soul is a very important part in judaism. There is the body and the soul.

Here are some articles about it if you care.

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

The Soul

The Afterlife: Soul & Afterlife Response on Ask the Rabbi

What is a Soul? - Questions & Answers

Levels of Soul Consciousness - First Steps

The Soul and the Afterlife - Kabbalah, Chassidism and Jewish Mysticism

 

[CMike]

death is the punishment for sin.

Adam was told that in the day he disobeyed Gods law, he would die.

Death is punishment.




We believe what the bible writers report. And if you look for it, there is evidence of a world wide flood.

Regarding scientists quoted in our articles, we are only repeating their own misgivings about evolution. We dont claim that these scientists do not believe in evolution.... we are showing that even in their own writings they admit that certain aspects of it dont seem to fit with the physical evidence.

That maybe the christian view, it's not the jewish one.

 

[Pegg]

That maybe the christian view, it's not the jewish one.

could you reference the hebrew scriptures which you believe says otherwise?

 

[CMike]

They are discussed in the links in great detail.

 

[Pegg]

They are in the links.

Ok lets examine them.

This one sounds very much like the 'resurrection'
The reunion comes later....after God has brought a person back to life which is what the word resurrection actually means.

From the first link:
"It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

It looks like the 'world to come' is being miss applied as a spiritual realm rather then what it actually is, the messianic age. The time when the Messiah will rule over the entire earth of mankind in a physical sense.

Olam Ha-Ba: The World to Come

The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age.

I noticed there were no scriptures mentioned for this particular belief. Yet the original garden of Eden was a physical place of perfection. Who determined that the original 'physical' garden of Eden is actually a 'spiritual' place in the future?

Gan Eden and Gehinnom

The place of spiritual reward for the righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of spiritual perfection.

From your second link re: Soul. It is recognised that the teaching of the soul as something distinct from the body is well acknowledged, and its admited here that the Torah (Hebrew scriptures) do not teach that the soul is something distinct. The Soul is the living body - both animal and human.

Details of immortality are not mentioned in the Torah since revelation only deals with the present world. The prophet therefore says when speaking of the World to Come, "Never has the ear heard it -- no eye has seen it -- other than God: That which He will do for those who hope in Him" (Isaiah 64:3). That is, not even the great prophets were allowed to envision the reward of the righteous in the Ultimate future.
Man shares physio-chemical life processes with animals, and on the physical plane is indistinguishable from them. We therefore speak of man having an "animal soul" (Nefesh HaBehamit) which is contained in the blood, i.e. in the physio-chemical life processes. Regarding this soul, the Torah says, "The life-force of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:11).

That link goes onto mention how God breathed into the man to bring him to life which i agree with. But what it doesnt mention is that this 'spirit' or 'essence from God' does not belong to man, when a man dies, the spirit returns to God according to the Torah at Eccl 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it. So it cannot be stated that man can be eternal like that spirit. That spirit belongs to God and it is the life force that he endows us with....but he can just as easily remove the life force and send man back to the dust as he did with Adam and as he will do with the wicked.

the Torah says, "God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils a soul-breath of life (Nishmat Chaim). Man [thus] became a living creature (Nefesh Chaya)" (Genesis 2:7).
The Torah is teaching us that the human soul came directly from God's innermost Essence in the same way that a breath issues forth from a person's lungs and chest cavity.

 

[Thief]

Death is not punishment.
It is consequence.

In the garden event death is mentioned.
Partake and then you die.
That was true.
Still is.

Become as God and never die....also true.
Still is.

No one told any lies in the garden event.

As for death.....
If what you become cannot walk among angels....
then death of the spirit could be mercy.

 

[Pegg]

Death is not punishment.
It is consequence.

In the garden event death is mentioned.
Partake and then you die.
That was true.
Still is.

did you partake of the tree of knowledge?

I know i didnt. Yet im still going to die. Why?

Become as God and never die....also true.
Still is.

only if you believe the serpent.

But honestly, i dont think he is to be trusted.


According to Jesus, the serpent did lie and his lie led to the murder of the human family:

John 8:44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

 

[Agnostic75]

Death is the punishment for sin.

Adam was told that in the day he disobeyed Gods law, he would die.

Death is punishment.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Revelation 14:9-11

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Those Scriptures clearly say that people who worship the beast will be punished forever.

We believe what the Bible writers report. And if you look for it, there is evidence of a world wide flood.

Lots of geological evidence shows that a global flood did not occur. The law of gravity easily proves that a global flood did not occur since fossils are not sorted like they would be sorted if a global flood occurred. It you put some shells in a glass of water, and shake the glass, the law of gravity requires that they be sorted in certain ways. If a God inspired the Bible, he gave men science to help interpret the Bible.

No sensible person would claim that no one was alive in China around 2300 B.C.

No sensible Christian would claim that God created Jesus like your church does. An article at Cults and Misinterpreting John 1 | Bible Verses Distorted by Cults | Cults and Misinterpreting John 1 proves that your church is wrong about that, and has misinterpreted the Bible, and that 99% of Bible scholars disagree with your church about that. The article provides lots of proof using the Bible that your church is wrong about that issue.

The Bible does not say that Jesus would appear in the early 1900s like your church claims.

At The changing Watchtower interpretation of Bible Prophecy, there is an article that shows that Jehovah Witnesses have frequently changed how they interpret the Bible. The article mentions another article at Core Watchtower Teachings that also shows that Jehovah Witnesses have changed how they interpret the Bible.

Regarding scientists quoted in our articles, we are only repeating their own misgivings about evolution. We don't claim that these scientists do not believe in evolution....we are showing that even in their own writings they admit that certain aspects of it don't seem to fit with the physical evidence.

Their misgivings are not about whether or not evolution has occurred, only about how it occurred. Raup says that although there is not nearly as much fossil evidence as is often claimed, there is still enough to show that evolution has occurred. It was dishonest of your church to quote some of what Raup said without admitting that he says that there are enough fossils to show that evolution occurs. Bapteste's work has not been widely accepted by experts, and you cannot disprove his other reasons for accepting evolution. Gordon accepts a different tree of life, but he still accepts evolution, and you cannot discredit his acceptance of evolution. How many people in your church have a Ph.D. in biology, and have had peer reviewed papers on evolution published in science journals? Scientific support for evolution is extensive, and there is no way that you know enough about biology to discredit evolution.

You cannot prove that God wants Christians to interpret the Bible as literally as your church interprets it.

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, back to the OP.
Seems like an apologetic..'well, since the NT might be mistaken in
criticizing Scripture, then the overall theme of the criticism is wrong'!
Like I said, not a point imo, just some general semantics/argument.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why wasnt Lazarus in some afterlife either in heaven or in hell?

Do you mean like the other Lazarus: the one in Luke 16:19-31, who is sent to Heaven while the rich man gets sent to Hell?

 

[Pegg]

Do you mean like the other Lazarus: the one in Luke 16:19-31, who is sent to Heaven while the rich man gets sent to Hell?

that is an illustration....its an allegorical story given to teach a lesson.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

that is an illustration....its an allegorical story given to teach a lesson.

A lesson based on a lie?

 

[Pegg]

A lesson based on a lie?

actually the opposite.

A lesson based on truth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

actually the opposite.

A lesson based on truth.

So you think it's the truth that people will recognize that they're in Heaven or Hell while people are still living on Earth unjudged? That's the scenario that Jesus describes in that passage.

 

[Pegg]

So you think it's the truth that people will recognize that they're in Heaven or Hell while people are still living on Earth unjudged? That's the scenario that Jesus describes in that passage.

actually he's describing the relationship that some have with God and others dont. Allegory means that the characters or events in a story represent or symbolize ideas.

The idea Jesus presents here is that some are looked upon with favour....they are in the bosom position with the father, while others suffer the torment of Gods indignation against them.

 

[Agnostic75]

A lesson based on truth.

But as I showed in my post 210, you do not know what the truth is.

Allegory means that the characters or events in a story represent or symbolize ideas.

That is true, but you do not know when the Bible writers wrote allegories, such as their stories about Adam and Eve, and the global flood.

 

[Thief]

But as I showed in my post 210, you do not know what the truth is.



That is true, but you do not know when the Bible writers wrote allegories, such as their stories about Adam and Eve, and the global flood.

Truth you want?

Someone had to be first....in body, mind and heart.
Namesake would be the first indication it happened.

Adam might not have been the first of species.
But he would be first to walk with God.

That one item is the item of distinction.

Someone had to be first........it's true.