For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

[dance-above]

Why test his faithfulness? Hard to say... I, as a human, don't know what God was thinking or what his motif was when he decided to test Abraham. I believe that he was tested this way particularly to teach us something. First, He showed that Abraham will stop at nothing to please God, even having to sacrifice his only son. Second, by stopping that actual sacrifice, He showed that it will never be in his interest for us to go against the laws he as originally commanded us to follow, even when we might think that it is the right thing to do...


I admit to God I am a sinner as well. I do not, however, intentionally keep sinning because I know that I will be forgiven. I also do not sin thinking someone else will atone for my sins. When I sin, I know I will be punished. I know I am disappointing/angering God. I know I am being irresponsible.
The problem I have with the "Love Jesus and all will be forgiven" idea is precisely that you can basically be anyone or do anything without any consequences.

Every year, during our high holidays, we act as much as we can like angels who do not sin. We wake up extra early to pray for forgiveness; we fast; we stay at synagogue way longer that usual; we add to our daily prayers a long piece called Selihot (Pardons)... All in the purpose of asking God for forgiveness for all the sins that we have commit during the last year. We take responsibility for our actions. We don't just sin, and then think someone else will take care of it and I will be forgiven.

In the epistle of John, John says that "he witch is born from above sins not and he that hates his brethren has not seen god" so yes we must fulfill God's will but being under the law does nothing for an uncircumcised heart. Its not ok to sin but neither can you justify yourself before god with the law. "their works are as rags".

 

[dance-above]

Somewhere in the older scriptures it says: " I will write my laws on their heart and put them on their minds and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. The old testament was written on stone the new testament is written on the heart. The old testament is of the pen the new testament is of the Spirit. Does these help any?

 

[dance-above]

In another place : "he that sins is a slave to sin" and "a slave
Does not abide in the house forever" and "whom the Son sets free, is free indeed" law or no law we have all fallin short of the glory of God. Now he that has died sins no more and everyone that was buried with Christ sins no more.

 

[dantech]

Somewhere in the older scriptures it says: " I will write my laws on their heart and put them on their minds and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. The old testament was written on stone the new testament is written on the heart. The old testament is of the pen the new testament is of the Spirit. Does these help any?

This doesn't answer what was written in the original post, and this specific point you are trying to make has been answered probably 100 times in the past 4 days.

 

[dance-above]

This doesn't answer what was written in the original post, and this specific point you are trying to make has been answered probably 100 times in the past 4 days.

Its good know that other people agree with me. I did not read the other post. How did it not explain , did I misunderstand your question?

 

[dance-above]

Romans 7:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You can not be saved by the written law. This is why we must be born again.

Romans 8

King James Version (KJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

 

[dance-above]

Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

These are not really issues for us.

 

[dantech]

I have a question for you. How is it that even the Jews don't follow all the old testament laws and even the natural laws that proceeded them?

Why is it that when I ask a Christian a question, it has to be redirected at me?

Alright, please. Tell me. Which Torah/natural laws don't Jews follow?

EDIT TO ADD YOUR EDITED QUESTION:

What does this mean? Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Should this be literal?

It means exactly what you think it means. It isn't literal, no. What's your point? Jesus wasn't literal when he said to follow the laws? That was a metaphor? I suspect your answer to these questions will show us your level of creativity.

 

[dantech]

Its good know that other people agree with me. I did not read the other post. How did it not explain , did I misunderstand your question?

Yes, Christians agree with you, a Christian. Big surprise!

 

[dantech]

These are not really issues for us.

You edited the same post 3 times, to completely different questions within 5 minutes... Let me know when you're post is final.

 

[metis]

Somewhere in the older scriptures it says: " I will write my laws on their heart and put them on their minds and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. The old testament was written on stone the new testament is written on the heart. The old testament is of the pen the new testament is of the Spirit. Does these help any?

This is quite false. When one reads the Sermon in the Mount, for example, that's basically out of the Writings of the Prophets. Over and over again, the Tanakh states that one must have compassion and fight for justice.

 

[dance-above]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.













Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

You edited the same post 3 times, to completely different questions within 5 minutes... Let me know when you're post is final.

Sorry.

 

[dance-above]

This is quite false. When one reads the Sermon in the Mount, for example, that's basically out of the Writings of the Prophets. Over and over again, the Tanakh states that one must have compassion and fight for justice.

What is false about what I said?

 

[dance-above]

This is quite false. When one reads the Sermon in the Mount, for example, that's basically out of the Writings of the Prophets. Over and over again, the Tanakh states that one must have compassion and fight for justice.

Jeremiah 31:31-35

New International Version (NIV)

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

35 This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:

 

[dance-above]

This is quite false. When one reads the Sermon in the Mount, for example, that's basically out of the Writings of the Prophets. Over and over again, the Tanakh states that one must have compassion and fight for justice.

Ezekiel 36:26

New International Version (NIV)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

 

[dance-above]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.

Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

Sorry I changed what I said before. I didn't want to be without grace. When a man dies he is no longer under the previous law. And every covenant is not without the shedding of blood. To everyone who believes Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

 

[dantech]

Sorry I changed what I said before. I didn't want to be without grace. When a man dies he is no longer under the previous law. And every covenant is not without the shedding of blood. To everyone who believes Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

I'm not sure I understand.

Yes. If I die, I no longer need to eat kosher, or follow the Shabbat. The law is made to be applied, during our lives.
When someone else dies though, that doesn't annul the law for me...

What do you mean by "every covenant is not without the shedding of blood". Are you referring to sacrifices, and so to Jesus' crucifixion ?

 

[metis]

Ezekiel 36:26


26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

This and the Jeremiah citation must be taken into context, and what both have God saying is that rote ritual cannot be a substitute for moral conduct, which is a theme mentioned many times in the Writings of the Prophets.

If you look up "love" and how it appears in the Tanakh, it's used 450 times in various contexts (see Bible, Revised Standard Version ), but there are other verses whereas another word may be used but have the same message.

Jesus did not invent the concept, nor was he the first of our people to insist that we must operate out of love. The Sermon in the Mount is very Jewish.

Also, you might check this out:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

 

[dance-above]

Why is it that when I ask a Christian a question, it has to be redirected at me?

Alright, please. Tell me. Which Torah/natural laws don't Jews follow?

EDIT TO ADD YOUR EDITED QUESTION:


It means exactly what you think it means. It isn't literal, no. What's your point? Jesus wasn't literal when he said to follow the laws? That was a metaphor? I suspect your answer to these questions will show us your level of creativity.

Alot of the old testament laws where a shadow of things to come so once those things came and were fulfilled they became obsolete. You practice kosher but your living a shadow. The reason I brought the question about the natural laws because there were natural laws before Moses for example: divorce was not from the beginning " the two will become one flesh". This was from the beginning.
So there is a law under the mosaic law that made this obsolete. Divorce. Not that it is obsolete but that it was not counted as sin under the mosaic law. So why does it seem so wrong that we could have a new covenant that allows us to practice such things as not being kosher....? Does this make sense?

 

[metis]

Alot of the old testament laws where a shadow of things to come so once those things came and were fulfilled they became obsolete...

But:

Deuteronomy 4: (2): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

The above is just a sampling.