Rasing the minimum wage could cost jobs

[Revoltingest]

I observe that living cheaply while living well requires dedication & experience.
An old gent who works for me has no cash income other than social security.
- He bicycles most places, but has a very old truck which he personally maintains.
- He lives rent free in a room in a house where he does handyman chores for the owner.
- He gets dental work done cheaply by students at the university.
- He uses the public library for books, movies & internet access.
- He pays for his storage with me by working.
- He buys clothing at thrift stores. (I've gotten clothing I still wear from dumpsters!)
- He gets stuff that's abandoned by tenants moving out.
He's very happy with his lot in life. He has some money invested in stocks, but that provides almost no income. Yet he's able to afford a couple ultra-light aircraft & take flying lessons.
He is cheap. Did I mention he's cheap?
Anyway, many other folk I know living on the edge could learn from him. Perhaps there should be courses in cheapskatery.

 

[esmith]

I think one thing we can agree on is that hard work and perseverance is a must have quality. No matter how old or what generation....you have to do what you can to the best of your ability to be able to support yourself and your family and this definitely means that people have to further their education if at all possible in order to better their chances of being successful.

Well now we seem to agree on a couple of things. Who would have thunk? However, as far a the economic direction of the country I do not ever see us agreeing until one or the others beliefs are shown to be totally correct. However, I'm almost 72 so..........?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I observe that living cheaply while living well requires dedication & experience.
An old gent who works for me has no cash income other than social security.
- He bicycles most places, but has a very old truck which he personally maintains.
- He lives rent free in a room in a house where he does handyman chores for the owner.
- He gets dental work done cheaply by students at the university.
- He uses the public library for books, movies & internet access.
- He pays for his storage with me by working.
- He gets stuff that's abandoned by tenants moving out.
He's very happy with his lot in life. He has some money invested in stocks, but that provides almost no income. Yet he's able to afford a couple ultra-light aircraft & take flying lessons.
He is cheap. Did I mention he's cheap?
Anyway, many other folk I know living on the edge could learn from him. Perhaps there should be courses in cheapskatery.

I agree. Those goes to esmith's point about living within one's means. Living frugal is fun.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well now we seem to agree on a couple of things. Who would have thunk? However, as far a the economic direction of the country I do not ever see us agreeing until one or the others beliefs are shown to be totally correct. However, I'm almost 72 so..........?

I think there are some core principals when it comes to the economic direction of this country that we can agree on...such as a true going through line by line and trimming some serious fat from the federal budget. Consolidating and eliminating wasteful redundant services. Drafting a mandatory yearly budget and staying within in it. Having a serious look at the social programs to see where improvements can be made - consolidating and evaluating them as well as making the appropriate cuts. And I'm sure there are more.

 

[esmith]

I think there are some core principals when it comes to the economic direction of this country that we can agree on...such as a true going through line by line and trimming some serious fat from the federal budget. Consolidating and eliminating wasteful redundant services. Drafting a mandatory yearly budget and staying within in it. Having a serious look at the social programs to see where improvements can be made - consolidating and evaluating them as well as making the appropriate cuts. And I'm sure there are more.

Damn agree again. Ok let's try the following:
1. Means test Social Security
2. Means test Medicare.
3. Support school vouchers
4. Pass a balanced budget
5. Overhaul the federal tax laws
6. Take small steps to fix the broken immigration program step by step

 

[metis]

...Ok let's try the following:
1. Means test Social Security

Yes, but I think eliminating the cap is more likely.

2. Means test Medicare.

Not gonna happen, and for good reason.

3. Support school vouchers

No, as we've already seen how it's undermining public schools in many states including here in Michigan. Also, it is having the effect of creating more segregation.

4. Pass a balanced budget

Only if there's a provision to unbalance it in a national emergency, including a recession or depression.

5. Overhaul the federal tax laws

Yes. For example, lower corporate tax rates but have all pay, and also eliminate tax shelters.

6. Take small steps to fix the broken immigration program step by step

Yes, but there has to be a reasonable path to citizenship. However, way too many Republicans do not want this because they know most Hispanics tend to vote Democratic.

 

[esmith]

Originally Posted by esmith
...Ok let's try the following:
1. Means test Social Security

Yes, but I think eliminating the cap is more likely.

So, you are willing to allow those making over, for instance, $100,000 a year in retirement with assets in excess of say $2,000,000 draw Social Security? You do know that Social Security is supposed to be a safety net? However, I agree that you will probably see the cap lifted vice means testing, I would like to see both

2. Means test Medicare.

Not gonna happen, and for good reason.

Why do you say this? Again if you are making X number of dollars (take above as example) why should your health care be subsidized. Again Medicare was supposed to be a safety net for seniors.

3. Support school vouchers

No, as we've already seen how it's undermining public schools in many states including here in Michigan. Also, it is having the effect of creating more segregation.

It seems that you are looking at this through blinders. There are many locations that the school voucher system is working and providing excellent education for everyone. Where do you come up with the idea that it is creating segregation? Suggest you read the following: School Choice: Vouchers and research the school voucher program, you will find many articles for and against it. Do you research before you make a blanket statement. Oh by the way the article I referenced had this to say:

When compared to similar public school students, voucher recipients have generally performed at the same level on reading and math assessments according to the Center on Education Policy’s review of school voucher research, though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

Only if there's a provision to unbalance it in a national emergency, including a recession or depression.

I would only agree to this only if the US had to go to war to defend the country. Not a recession or depression, excessive government spending has a tendency to cause these.

5. Overhaul the federal tax laws

Yes. For example, lower corporate tax rates but have all pay, and also eliminate tax shelters.

Agree somewhat but the current tax code is so complicated that in actuality no one knows what it says.

6. Take small steps to fix the broken immigration program step by step

Yes, but there has to be a reasonable path to citizenship. However, way too many Republicans do not want this because they know most Hispanics tend to vote Democratic.

Guess you have been listing to the wrong talking points:
Read the House GOP's 6 Principles on Immigration Reform

 

[metis]

So, you are willing to allow those making over, for instance, $100,000 a year in retirement with assets in excess of say $2,000,000 draw Social Security? You do know that Social Security is supposed to be a safety net? However, I agree that you will probably see the cap lifted vice means testing, I would like to see both

I have no problems personally with means testing, but the problem lies in people who would be forced to contribute to a system that won't affect them, thus lies the problem. If they generally would agree, I certainly wouldn't object.

Why do you say this? Again if you are making X number of dollars (take above as example) why should your health care be subsidized. Again Medicare was supposed to be a safety net for seniors.

Same as above, but again I would have no problem with means testing personally.

It seems that you are looking at this through blinders. There are many locations that the school voucher system is working and providing excellent education for everyone. Where do you come up with the idea that it is creating segregation? Suggest you read the following: School Choice: Vouchers and research the school voucher program, you will find many articles for and against it. Do you research before you make a blanket statement.

Well, we've had vouchers here in Michigan for a couple of decades, and it has been bad news. Charter schools are testing no better than the public schools, there's been a increase in segregated schools, and our public schools have lost some necessary financing, and this doesn't even include the very hurtful budget cuts from our Republican governor and legislature. This has been covered widely by the papers and news channels here, so the research has been done, and there's no "blanket statement" on my part.

I would only agree to this only if the US had to go to war to defend the country. Not a recession or depression, excessive government spending has a tendency to cause these.

The above would only mean that getting out of a recession or depression would be much more difficult and harmful. Even conservative economists that I've read won't agree with you. If the private sector is taking a noser, not allowing the public sector to inject funds is like telling someone that's bleeding to death that they they'd be better off just letting nature takes its course.

Guess you have been listing to the wrong talking points:
Read the House GOP's 6 Principles on Immigration Reform

This issue has been discussed many times on "Morning Joe" and CNN with Republicans participating, and even though the national party leaders would like a solution that would even allow a pathway to citizenship, the House Republicans really aren't interested. Now, the Republicans are trying for a piecemeal legislative approach, but there's no way the Democrats will go for that, and I agree with them as it really has to be a package deal-- that's how true compromise works.

 

[metis]

It seems that you are looking at this through blinders. There are many locations that the school voucher system is working and providing excellent education for everyone. Where do you come up with the idea that it is creating segregation? Suggest you read the following: School Choice: Vouchers and research the school voucher program, you will find many articles for and against it. Do you research before you make a blanket statement. Oh by the way the article I referenced had this to say:

Apparently you don't read what you had actually linked:

Keeping Informed about School Vouchers: A Review of Major Developments and Research
Author(s): Alexandra Usher, Nancy Kober
Published: July 27, 2011
This report examines a decade’s worth of research on school vouchers and concludes that vouchers have had no clear positive effect on student academic achievement, and mixed outcomes for students overall. Effects on graduation rates, parental satisfaction, public school achievement and cost to taxpayers are discussed. The report also notes that much of this research has been carried out or sponsored by pro-voucher organizations, signaling a particular need for scrutiny. In addition to this research review, the report describes voucher programs currently in existence, summarizes major court cases and referenda on vouchers from the past ten years, and reflects on changes in the voucher landscape. The report serves as an update to CEP’s paper School Vouchers: What We Know and Don't Know…and How We Could Learn More, released in 2000.

- See more at: Keeping Informed about School Vouchers: A Review of Major Developments and Research, by Alexandra Usher, Nancy Kober at the Center on Education Policy -- Keeping Informed about School Vouchers: A Review of Major Developments and Research, by Alexandra Usher, Nancy Kober at the Center on Education Policy[/B]

As far as your other link, it's to a right-wing source, so try and actually try a link to some site that's at least a bit more objective.

 

[metis]

BTW, in regards to not doing deficit spending in a recession or depression, I started another thread that can be found here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/north-american-politics/159323-big-ben.html#post3655247

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Damn agree again. Ok let's try the following:
1. Means test Social Security

I don't think it's necessary.

Means Testing Social Security | Mother Jones

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/...t-social-security-is-already-means-tested.ece

‘Means testing’ to bolster Social Security? It’s already happening. - The Washington Post

2. Means test Medicare.

Not necessary

Medicare IS Means Tested | Jared Bernstein | On the Economy

3. Support school vouchers

Not worth it. All it does is lined the pockets of the wealthy/rich. It's a "for profit" system that doesn't seem to be producing the results.

Vouchers don’t do much for students

In Milwaukee, just 13 percent of voucher students scored proficient in math and 11 percent made the bar in reading this spring. That’s worse on both counts than students in the city’s public schools. In Cleveland, voucher students in most grades performed worse than their peers in public schools in math, though they did better in reading.

In New Orleans, voucher students who struggle academically haven’t advanced to grade-level work any faster over the past two years than students in the public schools, many of which are rated D or F, state data show.

School Choice: Vouchers

When compared to similar public school students, voucher recipients have generally performed at the same level on reading and math assessments according to the Center on Education Policy’s review of school voucher research, though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

4. Pass a balanced budget

What do you mean "balanced budget"... Does this mean carry a low debt and deficit or $0 (no) debt and deficit?

5. Overhaul the federal tax laws

Yes because we're giving out way too much corporate welfare and farm subsidies.

6. Take small steps to fix the broken immigration program step by step

The Senate passed a comprehensive immigration bill. Secure the border...Yes...but strip out ALL the PORK Spending from the bill. No need for "small steps"...The steps laid out in the Senate bill is the blueprint. (Needs improvement and streamlining to cut the pork).

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I would only agree to this only if the US had to go to war to defend the country. Not a recession or depression, excessive government spending has a tendency to cause these.

When has government spending in America caused recession or depression? To my knowledge excess spending has only helped America get out of recessions and depressions. And no this recent recession was not caused by government spending.

 

[esmith]

When has government spending in America caused recession or depression? To my knowledge excess spending has only helped America get out of recessions and depressions. And no this recent recession was not caused by government spending.

And excessive government spending has gotten us out of the current recession? I did misspeak, I should have said that government spending contributed to them.

 

[metis]

And excessive government spending has gotten us out of the current recession? I did misspeak, I should have said that government spending contributed to them.

From an economic perspective, the above is totally illogical and, yes, the stimulus actually did help us get out of the recession at least somewhat. This part of economics is not rocket science because money injected into the system we well know does creates jobs, pure and simple.

However, the potential problem is paying the interest on the debt, which is money at least partially wasted, especially since investors are putting their money into foreign enterprises and/or off-shore shelters. Still, it's better to create jobs now and pay on the debt once we're recovering, which is actually what is now happening.

But of course those who watch Fox "News" will never understand these basic facts.

 

[metis]

When has government spending in America caused recession or depression? To my knowledge excess spending has only helped America get out of recessions and depressions. And no this recent recession was not caused by government spending.

You are correct. There certainly can be negative repercussions from too much deficit spending or for too long, especially when it continues after recovery, which we saw both Reagan and "W" do while claiming to be "conservatives".

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You are correct. There certainly can be negative repercussions from too much deficit spending or for too long, especially when it continues after recovery, which we saw both Reagan and "W" do while claiming to be "conservatives".

And there has to be a balance struck. Not only do we have to watch that we're spending too much but that we're not trying to solve it by inappropriately cutting across the board under the guise that we're going to reduce the deficit. Austerity won't work and it will make investors and consumers panic....

 

[metis]

Austerity won't work and it will make investors and consumers panic....

Which right now has investors shaking a bit, thus causing the stock market to have hiccups.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

And excessive government spending has gotten us out of the current recession? I did misspeak, I should have said that government spending contributed to them.

We are climbing out of the recession. Austerity would have made things worse as it was tried in Europe by a few countries with disastrous results. Economics 101 is that you increase government spending when in a recession. The problem was that all the attempts to help people went to the wrong places. Things were still cut in the most dire hour of need and overall help was not given.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You are correct. There certainly can be negative repercussions from too much deficit spending or for too long, especially when it continues after recovery, which we saw both Reagan and "W" do while claiming to be "conservatives".

Drastic government spending when it isn't needed is bad. I don't know of anyone who claims this is the correct route. But its just simple ignorance of the way economics debt works with countries simply because of the misconception that it would be in any way similar to a person who has a finite amount of money. National debt and personal debt are not treated the same and cannot really be compared.

But I agree if we continued huge deficits for 10 years even with economic recovery it would cause massive inflation among other things.

 

[esmith]

We are climbing out of the recession. Austerity would have made things worse as it was tried in Europe by a few countries with disastrous results. Economics 101 is that you increase government spending when in a recession. The problem was that all the attempts to help people went to the wrong places. Things were still cut in the most dire hour of need and overall help was not given.

So, where would you have invested increased government spending?