School projects and proselytzing

[Thana]

How does a cheap toy and a “sinner’s prayer” of conversion and a religious pledge card help a starving child?

- The Salvation Army
- World Vision International
- St Vincent De Paul Society
- Habitat For Humanity

Those are just some of the thousands of Christian Charity organisations, So are you all telling me you're not going to donate your time or your money to these, Just because of their faith/principles etc?

So in other words, Your scruples are going to interfere with your sense of charity?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

- The Salvation Army
- World Vision International
- St Vincent De Paul Society
- Habitat For Humanity

Those are just some of the thousands of Christian Charity organisations, So are you all telling me you're not going to donate your time or your money to these, Just because of their faith/principles etc?

So in other words, Your scruples are going to interfere with your sense of charity?

What's wrong with:
- the Red Cross
- Oxfam
- Unicef
- Doctors Without Borders

... or the many other excellent secular charities out there?

And on World Vision specifically, after hearing stories about them from a friend who worked for another NGO in Ghana, I wouldn't donate to them even if they weren't religious. They don't strike me as a well-run organization.

 

[Curious George]

- The Salvation Army
- World Vision International
- St Vincent De Paul Society
- Habitat For Humanity

Those are just some of the thousands of Christian Charity organisations, So are you all telling me you're not going to donate your time or your money to these, Just because of their faith/principles etc?

So in other words, Your scruples are going to interfere with your sense of charity?

I don't think their problem is with the organizations beliefs, but rather how an organizations beliefs can impact how they do what they do. if the organization only used secular donations for secular purposes, I doubt anyone would care. But, when donations go to support both a cause in which one believes and to a cause in which one does not believe, then people object. Because, they would rather their donations go to an organization which only supports causes in which they believe. The argument, then, is that their are plenty of organizations which support causes in which everyone in a group believes, therefore it is unnecessary to use an organization who supports a controversial cause.

 

[metis]

What I'd like to discuss is if this crosses the line of bringing religion into the class room; the school is a public school funded with federal, state, and county money, and the organization is overtly religious and actively proselytizes to those it helps.

It's clearly unconstitutional, but if no one challenges it, ...

 

[Curious George]

It's clearly unconstitutional, but if no one challenges it, ...

I do not think it is unconstitutional. The children at the school just make donations or draw posters. Everything religious takes place outside the view of the children. To restrict religious institutions from receiving non religious donations on public school grounds while allowing non religious institutions to receive such donations would actually be unconstitutional. This is more about allowing a teacher to require children to donate to a controversial group. It is a PTA problem not a violation of church and state separation.

 

[Tarheeler]

I do not think it is unconstitutional. The children at the school just make donations or draw posters. Everything religious takes place outside the view of the children. To restrict religious institutions from receiving non religious donations on public school grounds while allowing non religious institutions to receive such donations would actually be unconstitutional. This is more about allowing a teacher to require children to donate to a controversial group. It is a PTA problem not a violation of church and state separation.

To say that the kids are just making donations or drawing posters is incorrect IMO. They're creating the shoeboxes that the organization will use as part of their mission and proselytizing. In making participation in this activity a class assignment, they've made both the school and the children partners in the proselytizing and overt religious activities.

 

[Curious George]

To say that the kids are just making donations or drawing posters is incorrect IMO. They're creating the shoeboxes that the organization will use as part of their mission and proselytizing. In making participation in this activity a class assignment, they've made both the school and the children partners in the proselytizing and overt religious activities.

And I can understand why any person would object. However, it is not a violation of the constitution. It is not a violation of church and state. the religious aspect is indirect, and does not involve the student. I can understand why you wouldn't want your child to participate, I agree the school made a poor decision, but I see no constitutional violation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not think it is unconstitutional. The children at the school just make donations or draw posters. Everything religious takes place outside the view of the children. To restrict religious institutions from receiving non religious donations on public school grounds while allowing non religious institutions to receive such donations would actually be unconstitutional. This is more about allowing a teacher to require children to donate to a controversial group. It is a PTA problem not a violation of church and state separation.

Getting kids in a public school to prepare materials for a religious organization as part of the curriculum violates the Lemon Test in at least two ways I can think of.

 

[Riverwolf]

- The Salvation Army
- World Vision International
- St Vincent De Paul Society
- Habitat For Humanity

Those are just some of the thousands of Christian Charity organisations, So are you all telling me you're not going to donate your time or your money to these, Just because of their faith/principles etc?

So in other words, Your scruples are going to interfere with your sense of charity?

Whether a charity is Christian or not doesn't matter. What matters is whether the organization is actually a charity and not an advertising firm.

 

[Tarheeler]

Getting kids in a public school to prepare materials for a religious organization as part of the curriculum violates the Lemon Test in at least two ways I can think of.

I agree.

I'll fully admit that the school has a valid legislative action: Under NC law, they must provide instruction in "civic values", and the stated purpose of the project is to teach "civil responsibility".

But the action has the primary effect of advancing religion (the kids are making items used in proselyting attempts), and it does result in an excessive government entanglement with religion.

 

[averageJOE]

- The Salvation Army
- World Vision International
- St Vincent De Paul Society
- Habitat For Humanity

Those are just some of the thousands of Christian Charity organisations, So are you all telling me you're not going to donate your time or your money to these, Just because of their faith/principles etc?

So in other words, Your scruples are going to interfere with your sense of charity?

You are moving the goal posts. This thread, and discussion, is about Operation Christmas Child. So my question stands; How does a cheap toy and a “sinner’s prayer” of conversion and a religious pledge card help a starving child?

 

[Curious George]

Getting kids in a public school to prepare materials for a religious organization as part of the curriculum violates the Lemon Test in at least two ways I can think of.

First, I would not rely too heavily on the lemon test. See Van Orden v. Perry 545 U.S. 677 (2005). Second, I do not think one can assert that the government actions was not secular: They had kids bring presents and gifts and donated those presents and gifts to an institution that would distribute those presents and gifts. The primary purpose was not to advance or prohibit religion: They created the assignment in order to teach the children about civic responsibility. The government action did not excessively entangle religious and governmental institutions: The religious group is not relying on the school nor vice versa. I would assume that the only interaction between the groups is a "gift pick-up" and the use of each others names. This hardly equals entanglement, let alone excessive.

I agree.

I'll fully admit that the school has a valid legislative action: Under NC law, they must provide instruction in "civic values", and the stated purpose of the project is to teach "civil responsibility".

But the action has the primary effect of advancing religion (the kids are making items used in proselyting attempts), and it does result in an excessive government entanglement with religion.

I do not know all of the individual circumstances of this particular event. Any of my thoughts only express my general beliefs on the subject, and if you, who understands and knows the details of what actually occurred and how it occurred feel that the school acted unconstitutionally and continues to do so, then I would suggest that you seek legal counsel of a lawyer in your city. It is important to uphold and enforce the constitution.

 

[Vinayaka]

A strange irony here is that although it's called Operation Christmas Child, most of the boxes go to people who don't celebrate Christmas.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I agree.

I'll fully admit that the school has a valid legislative action: Under NC law, they must provide instruction in "civic values", and the stated purpose of the project is to teach "civil responsibility".

But the action has the primary effect of advancing religion (the kids are making items used in proselyting attempts), and it does result in an excessive government entanglement with religion.

This is how they roll in NC.....Since both houses are controlled by one party they've been slowly and in some cases..secretively pushing their theocratic agenda.......

 

[roger1440]

My daughter recently brought home a permission slip informing us that her 6th grade social studies class will be participating in school project. The purpose of this project, according to the form, is to teach the "value of responsible citizenship".

This year, the project will be filling shoe boxes for Operation Christmas Child. This project is a function of Samaritan's Purse, who's "About Us" reads: After sharing the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus said “Go and do likewise.” That is the mission of Samaritan's Purse—to follow the example of Christ by helping those in need and proclaiming the hope of the Gospel.

Similarly, the web-page for Operation Christmas Child prominently displays this: Since 1993, more than 100 million boys and girls in over 130 countries have experienced God’s love through the power of simple shoebox gifts from Operation Christmas Child. Samaritan’s Purse works with local churches and ministry partners to deliver the gifts and share the life-changing Good News of Jesus Christ.



What I'd like to discuss is if this crosses the line of bringing religion into the class room; the school is a public school funded with federal, state, and county money, and the organization is overtly religious and actively proselytizes to those it helps.

Sounds like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me.

 

[Me Myself]

I agree.

I'll fully admit that the school has a valid legislative action: Under NC law, they must provide instruction in "civic values", and the stated purpose of the project is to teach "civil responsibility".

But the action has the primary effect of advancing religion (the kids are making items used in proselyting attempts), and it does result in an excessive government entanglement with religion.

What?! I hope I misunderstood something. You are telling me they are not doing anything legally incorrect?

They are deliberately using a religious charity when they can use a secular one.

 

[roger1440]

What?! I hope I misunderstood something. You are telling me they are not doing anything legally incorrect?

They are deliberately using a religious charity when they can use a secular one.

Indirectly the public school is promoting Christianity.

 

[metis]

I do not think it is unconstitutional. The children at the school just make donations or draw posters. Everything religious takes place outside the view of the children. To restrict religious institutions from receiving non religious donations on public school grounds while allowing non religious institutions to receive such donations would actually be unconstitutional. This is more about allowing a teacher to require children to donate to a controversial group. It is a PTA problem not a violation of church and state separation.

It would only be constitutional if it were entirely organized by the kids themselves minus the administration and the teaching staff.

 

[metis]

Indirectly the public school is promoting Christianity.

And it's exactly this that's the problem, which is why it cannot legally be handled by the school staff.

 

[roger1440]

The school is in North Carolina, right smack in the middle of the so called “Bible Belt”. WOW, what a coincidence, some politicians want to make Christianity the state religion.



North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill
North Carolina May Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill