Men's Issues/Masculism DIR

[Penumbra]

Its important to say ignition was goofing around. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3393513-post36.html

Was it really, though?

The things I disliked were:

Now this post wasnt at all hateful or aggressive nor anything similar, but here all hell started to break lose, as feminism was talked as if being literally genderegualitarianism . Then people where saying that the feminism DIR was NOT being used in that way (which is of course a fact. Being pro equality of gender is not by far the only requirement to be in feminism DIR, and saying youare a feminists doesnt seem to be the only requirement either) , this was interpreted by some feminists to be feminism bashing, and the poo flinging began.

Before this there are various posts of the issues to be discussed in such a forum, like these:

Thank you for the clarification. In observation:

-The posts you said you didn't like were from two men. Apparently they're male non-masculinists, if that's how we're defining things with the OP poll in mind.

-The posts you used as positive examples of thread topics were from three women, and one man who is publicly banned, so his ideas would have to be brought up by someone else if they're going to be made.

Therefore, my questions would be something like,

-What's the best name, color, and location for this area, if it were to exist? I've seen that some ideas have been provided in this nearly 60 page thread, but I haven't seen any large support for one.

-If it has a colored label, what precisely is the key to get in, considering the above examples you provided?

 

[Me Myself]

You are right that classifying anyone with an either-or dichotomy is problematic, however I have read many of your posts on RF, you are both intelligent and open to other perspectives

I appreciate your good taste and judgement!

You are right that classifying anyone with an either-or dichotomy is problematic, however I have read many of your posts on RF, you are both intelligent and open to other perspectives, so I assume you "get" her perspective, if you disagree with how she conveyed it why not discuss that. What she is criticizing considering her posts is not the type of directory you are advocating. In fact given your similar opinions on the topic I was even a little surprised you took it that way and also surprised by her defensive response to your post. I would suggest that the conflict originated around you voicing your perceptions of hostility, which likely referred to the rebranding thread and others. I believe her response was toss it out there and see if it manifests. Maybe that was dismissive but why not talk through these issues with potential allies. However, given that you have discussed men's issues with her and heard her opinions how could you think that the boo-hoos, and silliness comments were directed at your concept of men's issues?

Its not about the boo hoos being directed at me personaly, it is that the thread is already emotinally charged with a lot of conflict and it is the kind of attitude with can easily keep it going.

Ironically, I do see how showing this kind of attitude can be seen as more poo flinging. Thats the issue with poo, yu get it out of your face and tell the other monkey to drop it, and it still falls on someone else's butt! :cover: it is all over the ace already, people slip like crazies and everything smells!

As I said I do am interested on discussing issues with her and know her points, but this thread aint about that, so that is why I am not dng so in this thread now.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see an insult in my post. I do wonder whether there is a chip on your shoulder, though, considering the tone of this post.

Some of us just dislike insults, particularly when they are unwarranted.

 

[Me Myself]

Was it really, though?

Thank you for the clarification. In observation:

-The posts you said you didn't like were from two men. Apparently they're male non-masculinists, if that's how we're defining things with the OP poll in mind.

-The posts you used as positive examples of thread topics were from three women, and one man who is publicly banned, so his ideas would have to be brought up by someone else if they're going to be made.

Therefore, my questions would be something like,

-What's the best name, color, and location for this area, if it were to exist? I've seen that some ideas have been provided in this nearly 60 page thread, but I haven't seen any large support for one.

-If it has a colored label, what precisely is the key to get in, considering the above examples you provided?

I honestly dont have a great deal of care of their gender. As I said it is not that I found riverwolfs post to be aggressive or problematic iitself (I disagreed with it, but that's another story ) it is that that post marked the begining of people pointing how e feminism DIR didnt work for this and that, and then some feminists said they were being bashed and hammana hammana poo flinging.

I think green would be the best. I think everyone should be welcomed to post there but the subject would be one of discussion more an debate, so I would like it to have the idea of DIRS of no debate but just discussion. I also like green becaause I am really interested in everyone else's opinion about such topics and wouldnt want a label to get in the place of that.

I think in a sense it would be like the seekers DIR. Almost anyone can be said to be a seeker, yet the forum remains and remains so given it focuses on the subject of seeking and makes it a space where there would be no debate, but would indeed be discussion.

That is my personal perspective on the issue. I think at least Rev would be with me on it hopefully, I aint wrong.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Some of us just dislike insults, particularly when they are unwarranted.

Please point out what insult I allegedly threw. I personally dislike thinly-veiled threats, but I'm not in any position to do anything about them in this forum.

 

[Apex]

Are the questions a problem?

Why have you ignored mine?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401877-post535.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401863-post527.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401884.html#post3401884
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401910.html#post3401910

 

[Alceste]

Was anyone aruing that raping men and inadequate and discriminatory support services are a good thing or acceptable in any way? There were a few different serious topics brought up concerning men's issues that would be discussed, but because yours was ignored a DIR shouldn't be taken seriously?

Was the problem of insufficient funding and resources for male victims of sexual assault your main reason for wanting a men's rights DIR?

If so, of course I don't object to the sub-forum, although I still wonder why you didn't suggest it until a feminism DIR was created.

 

[Penumbra]

I honestly dont have a great deal of care of their gender. As I said it is not that I found riverwolfs post to be aggressive or problematic iitself (I disagreed with it, but that's another story ) it is that that post marked the begining of people pointing how e feminism DIR didnt work for this and that, and then some feminists said they were being bashed and hammana hammana poo flinging.

I think green would be the best. I think everyone should be welcomed to post there but the subject would be one of discussion more an debate, so I would like it to have the idea of DIRS of no debate but just discussion. I also like green becaause I am really interested in everyone else's opinion about such topics and wouldnt want a label to get in the place of that.

I think in a sense it would be like the seekers DIR. Almost anyone can be said to be a seeker, yet the forum remains and remains so given it focuses on the subject of seeking and makes it a space where there would be no debate, but would indeed be discussion.

That is my personal perspective on the issue. I think at least Rev would be with me on it hopefully, I aint wrong.

Thank you for the reply.

Most would probably agree that the Seekers DIR is not controversial. A seeker is so broad, and I wouldn't expect much need to clarify who can and who cannot post there. The Feminist Only and now this Masculinist Area have proven discussion-worthy, to say the least, which makes things a little different. Part of the discussion on the Feminist Area in that poll thread was who gets to post there? Is it necessary and sufficient to identify as a 'Feminist'? That's the sort of discussion and debate that popped up. I can't mention staff stuff other than to point out that whenever something new is created, there of course has to be a discussion on how to moderate it.

Green areas usually still have a degree of protection from a defined insider and outsider group. The Buddhist DIR is green, which means non-Buddhists are restricted to respectful questions or knowledgeable answers within the spirit of Buddhism. For the purple feminist area, being a feminist is the crux of the insider/outsider scheme.

So the question is, who is the insider/outsider group for this? That's why I ask for the name, the general mission, and point out the observation of gender so far in this thread. What would be the name and topic of the green labeled area for which members must post within the tenets and spirit of?

 

[Me Myself]

Thank you for the reply.

Most would probably agree that the Seekers DIR is not controversial. A seeker is so broad, and I wouldn't expect much need to clarify who can and who cannot post there. The Feminist Only and now this Masculinist Area have proven discussion-worthy, to say the least, which makes things a little different. Part of the discussion on the Feminist Area in that poll thread was who gets to post there? Is it necessary and sufficient to identify as a 'Feminist'? That's the sort of discussion and debate that popped up. I can't mention staff stuff other than to point out that whenever something new is created, there of course has to be a discussion on how to moderate it.

Green areas usually still have a degree of protection from a defined insider and outsider group. The Buddhist DIR is green, which means non-Buddhists are restricted to respectful questions or knowledgeable answers within the spirit of Buddhism. For the purple feminist area, being a feminist is the crux of the insider/outsider scheme.

So the question is, who is the insider/outsider group for this? That's why I ask for the name, the general mission, and point out the observation of gender so far in this thread. What would be the name and topic of the green labeled area for which members must post within the tenets and spirit of?

To me, if you care about men's rights and think they are important, you are an insider. That's it.

I dont want discussions to degenerate into who is the biggest victim and out of topic so that is why I would like a DIR, to prevent such things in a place where the whole focus is rights for men.

MRA.

I am interested in hearing other points of view.

 

[Alceste]

Why have you ignored mine?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401877-post535.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401863-post527.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401884.html#post3401884
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401910.html#post3401910

Those are reasonable arguments for a Man Cave, IMO, depending on the subject matter you are hesitant to post. (Some things, we should ALL be hesitant to post).

 

[Alceste]

Thank you for the reply.

Most would probably agree that the Seekers DIR is not controversial. A seeker is so broad, and I wouldn't expect much need to clarify who can and who cannot post there. The Feminist Only and now this Masculinist Area have proven discussion-worthy, to say the least, which makes things a little different. Part of the discussion on the Feminist Area in that poll thread was who gets to post there? Is it necessary and sufficient to identify as a 'Feminist'? That's the sort of discussion and debate that popped up. I can't mention staff stuff other than to point out that whenever something new is created, there of course has to be a discussion on how to moderate it.

Green areas usually still have a degree of protection from a defined insider and outsider group. The Buddhist DIR is green, which means non-Buddhists are restricted to respectful questions or knowledgeable answers within the spirit of Buddhism. For the purple feminist area, being a feminist is the crux of the insider/outsider scheme.

So the question is, who is the insider/outsider group for this? That's why I ask for the name, the general mission, and point out the observation of gender so far in this thread. What would be the name and topic of the green labeled area for which members must post within the tenets and spirit of?

If I can make a suggestion, RF should just slap a Man Cave up there and see what happens. I think people self-regulate when it comes to insider and outsider groups in DIRs. After a couple hiccups with early comments that sought to treat the new feminist DIR as a "business as usual" forum for critiquing all the shortcomings of feminism, it's been pretty smooth sailing.

 

[Penumbra]

Why have you ignored mine?

Are the questions a problem?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401877-post535.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401863-post527.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401884.html#post3401884
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401910.html#post3401910

I didn't ignore your questions. Let's go through them:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401877-post535.html

That wasn't a question. It was a statement that you made in response to Me Myself's post. I indirectly replied to it by later asking for examples of resistance in this thread, and specifics on what demographic the DIR must protect the MRA group from.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3401863-post527.html

That wasn't a question either, and it wasn't posted by you. That was a post by Me Myself, which I did respond to.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401884.html#post3401884

This was a question, in reply to Draka's post rather than mine. You didn't quote me or make it clear you were asking me anything.

To answer it, it's not that I'm saying there is a downside to the subforum. At this point I'm basically just asking what the subforum is requested to be.
What purpose?
What name?
What color?
To protect from whom?
Where?

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es-masculism-dir-post3401910.html#post3401910

In that post, you asked about Me Myself's post (which I responded to), and a post you made that was not in response to me, nor a question.

 

[Me Myself]

If I can make a suggestion, RF should just slap a Man Cave up there and see what happens. I think people self-regulate when it comes to insider and outsider groups in DIRs. After a couple hiccups with early comments that sought to treat the new feminist DIR as a "business as usual" forum for critiquing all the shortcomings of feminism, it's been pretty smooth sailing.

Its funny. I didnt particularly cared when someone said lets do a women only place and a men only place... But I love "Man cave"

Thats another subject though

 

[Alceste]

Its funny. I didnt particularly cared when someone said lets do a women only place and a men only place... But I love "Man cave"

Thats another subject though

Sure, I like it too. Call it a Man Cave, and any MRA vs. feminist stupidity will be instantly defused. Whoever wants to settle in and talk about man stuff can do it. No problem.

If it's green, all the members of the Man Cave have to do is report posts that are disrespectful of the customs and traditions of the Man Cave.

And I DO want to learn how to repair my transmission with duct tape. I'll even make you a sandwich in exchange.

 

[freethinker44]

If so, of course I don't object to the sub-forum, although I still wonder why you didn't suggest it until a feminism DIR was created.

Didn't know we needed one until the issue was brought up. After this thread and the other one about men's issues, it's clear to me that this is something worth discussing.

 

[Rakhel]

You know what. I have just been to two separate Men's only Forums(lurking, of course) to see what men talk about and whether they actually bash feminism.
So far, out of the two separate forums, there was only one thread that mentions Feminism at all.

The thread OP was how this guy's girlfriend thought Feminism was stupid and gender roles and all. And yes there were a few that made comments denouncing Feminism(not bashing). However there were more that said those few posters didn't know exactly what they were talking about and that it was wholly possible the OP's girlfriend may have grown up in a sexist household and he needed to sit her down a talk to her about feminism and why she dislikes it.

They both talk about the double standards that exists(men can't get away with what women can and so forth), Men's rights, custodial issues and so forth.
There was one particular thread topic that ****** them off to no end and...well...their filter isn't as good as RF's. But it talked of a woman stating breast milk should only be for girls and not boys so I can kind of understand their anger.

So to say that every MRA forum will delve into a feminist bashing...what was that Revoltinest said?
Something about knuckle-dragging homophobic something or other, is really rather unfair.

 

[Me Myself]

Sure, I like it too. Call it a Man Cave, and any MRA vs. feminist stupidity will be instantly defused. Whoever wants to settle in and talk about man stuff can do it. No problem.

If it's green, all the members of the Man Cave have to do is report posts that are disrespectful of the customs and traditions of the Man Cave.

And I DO want to learn how to repair my transmission with duct tape. I'll even make you a sandwich in exchange.

Ah! You mean the MRA forum.

Well, sure, I dont really care for the name. Man cave sounds fun xD

As long as we know the main issue is men's rights. Though I wouldnt have problem with "stereotypical" male subjects like car repairing to be posted there too

It would probably be a fun inclusion

About me teaching you how to repair your transmission... i'll take the sandwich first, and if I start running afterwards, there is surely some very masculine something something zen kind of lesson that has to do with car repairing in there :ninja:

 

[Curious George]

Sure, I like it too. Call it a Man Cave, and any MRA vs. feminist stupidity will be instantly defused. Whoever wants to settle in and talk about man stuff can do it. No problem.

If it's green, all the members of the Man Cave have to do is report posts that are disrespectful of the customs and traditions of the Man Cave.

And I DO want to learn how to repair my transmission with duct tape. I'll even make you a sandwich in exchange.

Personally I like the idea of men's rights activism, or masculinities on the off chance google will pick it up and bring in interested parties thereby expanding rf. I do not think man cave, however quaint, is seo (search engine optimized).

 

[Penumbra]

If I can make a suggestion, RF should just slap a Man Cave up there and see what happens. I think people self-regulate when it comes to insider and outsider groups in DIRs. After a couple hiccups with early comments that sought to treat the new feminist DIR as a "business as usual" forum for critiquing all the shortcomings of feminism, it's been pretty smooth sailing.

As per the self-regulating thing, the final result of self-regulation is to sometimes report a post, which staff members then have to come to a consensus on how to handle. It's hard to come to a consensus on whether a post qualifies as appropriate for a man cave. More specifics than that are helpful.

For the feminist DIR, one must be a feminist to post. And smooth sailing for you maybe.

To me, if you care about men's rights and think they are important, you are an insider. That's it.

I dont want discussions to degenerate into who is the biggest victim and out of topic so that is why I would like a DIR, to prevent such things in a place where the whole focus is rights for men.

MRA.

I am interested in hearing other points of view.

So you're saying you're in favor of a discussion-only green label area, with the qualifier being that the person must care about men's rights. Is it a political subforum, a social subforum, or somewhere else?

 

[Alceste]

Didn't know we needed one until the issue was brought up. After this thread and the other one about men's issues, it's clear to me that this is something worth discussing.

Which issue? Male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault? Custody discrimination? Prison reform? Over-prescription of ADHD medication for school boys?