Men's Issues/Masculism DIR

[Alceste]

I know, right? Why doesn't the city make special ramps for entrances into buildings for me? Why are they always taking into consideration people who are chairbound or need a walker to get around anywhere? Why can't *I* have a ramp for a building if I just want one?

I hate how society ignores the walking people like me when we want a ramp.

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Sorry...I couldn't resist.

Yeah, exactly. This is why I'm so skeptical of whether MRAs are actually at all interested in bettering the lives of other men, or if they're just upset that nobody seems to be paying enough attention to them.

To me, it makes total sense for MRA activists to align themselves with feminist institutions and organizations that have a long history of success when it comes to pushing for egalitarian social and legislative changes. They could receive training, coaching, support, and access to resources and funding that would otherwise be difficult to acquire. It took us hundreds of years and endless blood, sweat and tears to build our philosophies, networks, organizations, model legislation, etc. and to learn how to persuade and convince others to support our objectives (at least after the fact, if not before - when do you ever hear anyone say women shouldn't be allowed to vote any more?)

I mean, it makes total sense if they're actually interested in "men's rights" in terms of equal human and civil rights, in the handful of areas where they are genuinely disadvantaged, such as child custody, rape support services, and over-prescription.

If they're only interested in complaining about feminism and feminists, then no, I guess it doesn't make any sense, nor is there anything we could teach them or any way we could help them achieve their goals.

I still say I would totally raise funds, write articles, contribute my time and effort to a campaign to help male rape victims find support services. But unless MRAs actually HAVE a campaign of that nature, it's kind of outrageous for them to complain that feminists aren't contributing to it.

 

[idav]

Not listening then. He's saying that establishing a "men's rights advocacy" group in a patriarchal culture is like establishing a "white rights advocacy" group in a racist culture. It just looks weird when people in a position of privilege organize to complain about how hard they've got it compared to a disadvantaged minority (in the case of MRA, women, in the case of white supremacists, black people).

So minorities can have special groups but what happens when they become a majority. Are white people allowed a type of NAACP when the minorities take majority? The priveledges will end up having a negative effect on the rest without the opportunities.

 

[idav]

Yeah, exactly. This is why I'm so skeptical of whether MRAs are actually at all interested in bettering the lives of other men, or if they're just upset that nobody seems to be paying enough attention to them.

To me, it makes total sense for MRA activists to align themselves with feminist institutions and organizations that have a long history of success when it comes to pushing for egalitarian social and legislative changes. They could receive training, coaching, support, and access to resources and funding that would otherwise be difficult to acquire. It took us hundreds of years and endless blood, sweat and tears to build our philosophies, networks, organizations, model legislation, etc. and to learn how to persuade and convince others to support our objectives (at least after the fact, if not before - when do you ever hear anyone say women shouldn't be allowed to vote any more?)

I mean, it makes total sense if they're actually interested in "men's rights" in terms of equal human and civil rights, in the handful of areas where they are genuinely disadvantaged, such as child custody, rape support services, and over-prescription.

If they're only interested in complaining about feminism and feminists, then no, I guess it doesn't make any sense, nor is there anything we could teach them or any way we could help them achieve their goals.

I still say I would totally raise funds, write articles, contribute my time and effort to a campaign to help male rape victims find support services. But unless MRAs actually HAVE a campaign of that nature, it's kind of outrageous for them to complain that feminists aren't contributing to it.

When men already have the rights they dont need to be vocal about it, doesnt mean there arent still issues especially when fem movements are looking like they will take over and more than likely tread on mens issues even without meaning to.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So minorities can have special groups but what happens when they become a majority. Are white people allowed a type of NAACP when the minorities take majority? The priveledges will end up having a negative effect on the rest without the opportunities.

We can see what happens if/when the time comes when whites are not the majority in this country. However, also consider that women make up a majority in numbers alone. More women are alive than men, and yet women are still socially disadvantaged in many areas.

Also, keep in mind that just because a majority of people belong to a certain ethnicity does not guarantee them social privilege. The Apartheid in South Africa is a solid example of a majority race being severely discriminated against by minority whites in that country.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I hear: "GLBT = Superior. Males = Sexist."

It's interesting to see gay folk & feminists flocking to an MRA thread to mock the fact that white folk & men folk would dare show advocacy for their own civil rights concerns. (Preposterous! They're in charge, so they cannot suffer!) Feminists will cluck approval for our measly issues, but their continual scoffing at MRA doesn't inspire confidence that they'll pursue equal rights for all.
Still, it's a hoot to see that even minority types will display profound bigotry too.

 

[Curious George]

I vote yes.

while it is indeed possible for the directory to become either a place to gripe or an empty space for crickets, it is also possible that it could attract more users who have a genuine interest, a place for sharing resources and information, and a place to discuss issues. Unless the clutter of having an additional directory in a greater way negatively detracts from the rf site I cannot see a valid reason not to try. Worst case scenario, the mods and admin have to deal with so much extra work because of abuse that they close the directory, then when and if the issue is brought up again, people will say "been there, tried that" and those advocating for such a directory will have the burden of showing why it will work better.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's interesting to see gay folk & feminists flocking to an MRA thread to mock the fact that white folk & men folk would dare show advocacy for their own civil rights concerns. (Preposterous! They're in charge, so they cannot suffer!) Feminists will cluck approval for our measly issues, but their continual scoffing at MRA doesn't inspire confidence that they'll pursue equal rights for all.
Still, it's a hoot to see that even minority types will display profound bigotry too.

*throws a couple of "cat toys" at Revoltingest*

 

[Curious George]

It's interesting to see gay folk & feminists flocking to an MRA thread to mock the fact that white folk & men folk would dare show advocacy for their own civil rights concerns. (Preposterous! They're in charge, so they cannot suffer!) Feminists will cluck approval for our measly issues, but their continual scoffing at MRA doesn't inspire confidence that they'll pursue equal rights for all.
Still, it's a hoot to see that even minority types will display profound bigotry too.

I think that statement needs qualifiers like "some," "a few," or even "a bunch."

 

[Titanic]

I voted yes. I mean it's only fair. Not that I would be into it. Real Men need to step it up. Even us girly men...

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, even we sexist, classist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic knuckle
walking anti-feminists have rights which are infringed upon from time to time.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think that statement needs qualifiers like "some," "a few," or even "a bunch."

Yeah, but if he did that, I wouldn't have an excuse to harass him with cat toys.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think that statement needs qualifiers like "some," "a few," or even "a bunch."

I actually had them, but took them out because it looked like an overly pedantic jumble of legalese.
(I figgered that by now, Mystic knows where I stand. And the Professor should take personal offense.)

Btw, Lucifer Stinknagel & Hobbs love the toys. (I put catnip on them.)

 

[idav]

Hey, even we sexist, classist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic knuckle
walking anti-feminists have rights which are infringed upon from time to time.

Wow almost like people cant even hate in peace anymore.

 

[Titanic]

I actually had them, but took them out because it looked like an overly pedantic jumble of legalese.
(I figgered that by now, Mystic knows where I stand.)

In the words of Peter Griffin. Revoltingest just burned someones &$$! BA DUM!...!

 

[Revoltingest]

In the words of Peter Griffin. Revoltingest just burned someones &$$! BA DUM!...!

Huh? This was a rare occasion where I wasn't trying to get anyone's goat.

 

[Titanic]

Huh? This was a rare occasion where I wasn't trying to get anyone's goat.

Well I guess I took that out of context then.

 

[Me Myself]

However, I do think that there should be a GLBT section on here if the mods would grant one, as GLBT individuals still face a lot of discrimination in Western society (not to mention many societies aroun the world).

Sounds like rainbow room takes more or less care of that. Not that I would oppose it at all though.

And about this:

I voted against this. For the record, I am a gay man.

Men's rights, or masculism or whatever you want to call it is a reaction against women's rights and equality. In the end it's not about gaining "rights" - men have had "rights" above and beyond what they were willing to grant to women for millenia - but about attempting to cling onto the last vestiges of male privilege.

I have the feeling that any “men’s issues” groups would be fraught with sexism, classism, racism, ableism, homophobia and transphobia, and only serve as a platform for criticism of feminism, which others have said is strictly against the forum rules.

In short having a "men's rights" section would be no less absurd than having a "white rights" section; a backlash against progress, tolerance and reason.

I I agree with this comments about it:

V

And here we have a perfect example of why the forum is needed.

What I hear: "GLBT = Superior. Males = Sexist."

 

[Draka]

In some areas where men need help they are put at a disadvantage specifically because of organizations in place to help women. It is exactly the mindset that men are not the ones who need help, that they are the privileged ones, that makes it so hard for them to get help when they do need it and for them to be taken seriously. It is great that we do have so many programs and efforts in place to help women now, that is wonderful, but a lot of those programs, those efforts, shouldn't be so gender biased. To suggest that to some though, seems to ruffle some feathers.

 

[Me Myself]

In some areas where men need help they are put at a disadvantage specifically because of organizations in place to help women. It is exactly the mindset that men are not the ones who need help, that they are the privileged ones, that makes it so hard for them to get help when they do need it and for them to be taken seriously. It is great that we do have so many programs and efforts in place to help women now, that is wonderful, but a lot of those programs, those efforts, shouldn't be so gender biased. To suggest that to some though, seems to ruffle some feathers.

Agreed.

 

[Curious George]

In the words of Peter Griffin. Revoltingest just burned someones &$$! BA DUM!...!

My only understanding of this is that I am somehow being accused of ciphering my ideas in weighty and pedantic legalese. Perhaps, there is merit in such statements. After all it wouldn't be the first time someone has taken issue with my word choice, tone or voice. All I can do is try to convey meaning. When such meaning is misunderstood, I can try to better communicate my meaning. If however, no one brings such misunderstandings or mis-communications to my attention, I cannot rectify any problems in the communication. Thus, I am left to conclude that any problems are on the interpreters end or they do not care enough about the issue to ask for clarification.

And though I realize some glaze over my words and read, "blah, blah, blah." I have come to accept that many of my words will not reach all audiences. However, rejoice in knowing that this aspect of myself is something I am continuing to ameliorate.