astral projection is biblical

[InChrist]

Your confusing a few different things here. One, an out of body experience is the soul projects out of the body into the spirit realm. Secondly, the spirit realm is it's own world. Thirdly, satan can be an angel of light in that realm, but he is not the realm of the spirit itself. And he is not your soul projecting out of it's body into the spirit realm. He is his own entity. So the experience of the soul projecting out of body is not satan and the spirit realm is not satan. Yes satan can appear as an angel of light in the spirit realm. Yes you can see light, but that light will not give you peace, love or joy. Satan cannot give you joy, he does not have it to give. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. How do you deal with that scripture and this logic?

Now when you see Gods light and are ingulfed in it, it will give joy, satans light will not give that. That is how you discern good and evil, that is one of the ways you discern. Scripture gives many different tests, that's one of them. What is the fruit.

I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. A person cannot discern truth or deception by feelings of joy. I have read and personally heard accounts of the way Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and by doing so is able to deceive naive humans with incredible feelings and experiences of (counterfeit) blissful peace and love. Here is one account from Randall Baer below:

"In my New Age days, I was quite adept at inducing and expanding the limits of mystical and out-of-body experiences – this was one of the big reasons for much of my success. I would mount myself up with all kinds of New Age inventions and crystals, and then thrust myself into trance-induced higher states of consciousness. It would feel like I was being transported by winged angels and loving forces to an incredible variety of dazzling extra-natural domains. The sensation of my spirit being released from Earthbound, bodily restrictions and freed to roam the unlimited expanses of the cosmos was breathtaking. Here it was, the freedom, the light, and the truth that I had been searching for all my life. I had found the keys that opened the heavens before my very eyes."


"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of ‘heavenly light’ that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity – it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations – the face of demons filled with the power of Satan."

Christian Testimonies - Inside the New Age Nightmare

 

[Windwalker]

I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. A person cannot discern truth or deception by feelings of joy. I have read and personally heard accounts of the way Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and by doing so is able to deceive naive humans with incredible feelings and experiences of (counterfeit) blissful peace and love. Here is one account from Randall Baer below:

"In my New Age days, I was quite adept at inducing and expanding the limits of mystical and out-of-body experiences – this was one of the big reasons for much of my success. I would mount myself up with all kinds of New Age inventions and crystals, and then thrust myself into trance-induced higher states of consciousness. It would feel like I was being transported by winged angels and loving forces to an incredible variety of dazzling extra-natural domains. The sensation of my spirit being released from Earthbound, bodily restrictions and freed to roam the unlimited expanses of the cosmos was breathtaking. Here it was, the freedom, the light, and the truth that I had been searching for all my life. I had found the keys that opened the heavens before my very eyes."


"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of ‘heavenly light’ that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity – it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations – the face of demons filled with the power of Satan."

Christian Testimonies - Inside the New Age Nightmare

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly the problem with so many New Age experience seekers. It is why I say with good reason, that New Age is really just an Experimental Christianity. His encounter with "Satan", that dark malevolent terrifying face was his own subconscious mind! I know what this place looks like in meditation, and unlike this man who went off on an experience-seeking thrill ride of bliss, the inner path is a difficult, and often frightening one because you are meeting your own inner demons!

This is not some external force of bad guys. It our own face that we have to meet head on, and through that Grace of God, through Faith, we are able to disarm this demon, this face of ourselves we hide from and which ultimately appears as it does because we FEAR it. We FEAR facing the end of ourselves. We FEAR, and the devil appears. Now trying to hide it by saying such silliness as "I cover you by the blood of Jesus," etc, is actually empowering it. What happens when we meet that fear, do so without fear, by the Grace of God, by that power, the "devil" our demon, disappears. It is only ourselves, and by this we "conquer death". We vanquish its bitter sting. We are freed.

I understand your, and most people's aversion to the inner path. It is because we are afraid of what lays in there. We do not want to truly face the face we hide from. Because when that face appears, we will see it as the devil.

This guy was all joy and bliss, and not ready to face what needs to be actually done when you go there. And that is facing death itself! Your own death. "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me". To death. You face the fear of death. Death and resurrection, lays within. Not your flesh. You go to hell, and are raised.

The devil is the face we put upon our fear. He confronted his demon, and ran scared. He ran off to hide once again. Was he really ready to die to himself? I say no.

 

[InChrist]

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly the problem with so many New Age experience seekers. It is why I say with good reason, they it is really just an Experimental form of Christianity. His encounter with "Satan", that dark malevolent terrifying face was his own subconscious mind! I know what this place looks like in meditation, and unlike this man who went off on an experience-seeking thrill ride of bliss, the inner path is a difficult, and often frightening one because you are meeting your own inner demons!

This is not some external force of bad guys. It our own face that we have to meet head on, and through that Grace of God, through Faith, we are able to disarm this demon, this face of ourselves we hide from and which ultimately appears as it does because we FEAR it. We FEAR facing the end of ourselves. We FEAR, and the devil appears. Now trying to hide it by saying such silliness as "I cover you by the blood of Jesus," etc, is actually empowering it. What happens when we meet that fear, do so without fear, by the Grace of God, by that power, the "devil" our demon, disappears. It is only ourselves, and by this we "conquer death". We vanquish its bitter sting. We are freed.

I understand your, and most people's aversion to the inner path. It is because we are afraid of what lays in there. We do not want to truly face the face we hide from. Because when that face appears, we will see it as the devil.

I don't believe your perspective is that of the biblical scriptures. According to the scriptures it is true we are to face our own sinfulness honestly, but the scriptures are more than clear that Satan and the demons are real beings actively intent on deceiving and harming humans.

This guy was all joy and bliss, and not ready to face what needs to be actually done when you go there. And that is facing death itself! Your own death. "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me". To death. You face the fear of death. Death and resurrection, lays within. Not your flesh. You go to hell, and are raised.

The devil is the face we put upon our fear. He confronted his demon, and ran scared. He ran off to hide once again. Was he really ready to die to himself? I say no.

[/quote]

Randall Baer may have run scared, but it was not from facing his own subconscious mind. It was from fear of seeing Satan and demonic evil face to face. I would say that he did die to self that day as he ran from satan and into the arms of Jesus the Savior.

 

[Windwalker]

Well, it seems that the result of your experience(s) which engulfs your spirit has not impacted your loyalty to love and serve Jesus Christ, but rather has influenced you to embrace the philosophy that all roads lead to God which is exactly what Satan wants people to believe.

I don't believe all roads lead to God.

 

[InChrist]

I don't believe all roads lead to God.

I get that impression from your posts. If I am wrong then I apologize.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't believe your perspective is that of the biblical scriptures.

I believe it is.

According to the scriptures it is true we are to face our own sinfulness honestly, but the scriptures are more than clear that Satan and the demons are real beings actively intent on deceiving and harming humans.

Your understanding is that. I see it as "true", and in fact real, in a metaphoric language. The real demon, the far more dangerous one, is not some 'person' out there. It's the fear within. That kills us. That keeps us from God. That keeps us from salvation.

And yes, we must face our sinfulness. Anything that keeps us from that Light, including our fear, must be overcome. Amen.

Randall Baer may have run scared, but it was not from facing his own subconscious mind.

Do you understand the subconscious mind?

It was from fear of seeing Satan and demonic evil face to face.

Yes. I have seen this devil too. So did Jesus in the 40 days in the desert. Did Jesus run?

I would say that he did die to self that day as he ran from satan and into the arms of Jesus the Savior.

I would say he hid. But, that's OK. Not everyone is ready to face this. It's a only shame that they then are taken as "experts" when they ran away rather than gaining actual insight beyond that mask of evil. On the other side of that face, is salvation. Freedom. Truth. God. Release.

 

[Windwalker]

I get that impression from your posts. If I am wrong then I apologize.

I believe there are plenty of paths that leads us away. Rather, that we follow to keep ourselves away.

 

[InChrist]

I believe it is.


Your understanding is that. I see it as "true", and in fact real, in a metaphoric language. The real demon, the far more dangerous one, is not some 'person' out there. It's the fear within. That kills us. That keeps us from God. That keeps us from salvation.

And yes, we must face our sinfulness. Anything that keeps us from that Light, including our fear, must be overcome. Amen.


Do you understand the subconscious mind?


Yes. I have seen this devil too. So did Jesus in the 40 days in the desert. Did Jesus run?


I would say he hid. But, that's OK. Not everyone is ready to face this. It's a only shame that they then are taken as "experts" when they ran away rather than gaining actual insight beyond that mask of evil. On the other side of that face, is salvation. Freedom. Truth. God. Release.

Just to clarify, are you saying that you do not believe a literal evil being as Satan exists? Satan is just metaphorical?

 

[Windwalker]

Just to clarify, are you saying that you do not believe a literal evil being as Satan exists? Satan is just metaphorical?

This gets tricky, since it is very subtle level. I believe we create and empower a force that has influence over us, which in this sense becomes very real. How historically people have spoken of this is to personify it, metaphorically, mythologically. It is a way to take some abstract, experiential reality of ours and put a symbolic face on it. So, in this sense the devil is real.

We then, through faith, are able to 'defeat the devil'. Believe me, what I'm saying here is highly abstract understandings, and I do get the simplicity of simply myth to get the point across. But there are limits that understanding through such literal ways of talking about these things such as some externalized "being" imposes upon us. It is like that understanding as a child, Paul speaks of. To say it is metaphor, does not mean it's not real. It simply empowers us to get into what it truly is and meet it and overcome it, rather than fearing it as some 'boogie man' in the night. That has it's place and time in understanding, but is very limited.

 

[InChrist]

This gets tricky, since it is very subtle level. I believe we create and empower a force that has influence over us, which in this sense becomes very real. How historically people have spoken of this is to personify it, metaphorically, mythologically. It is a way to take some abstract, experiential reality of ours and put a symbolic face on it. So, in this sense the devil is real.

We then, through faith, are able to 'defeat the devil'. Believe me, what I'm saying here is highly abstract understandings, and I do get the simplicity of simply myth to get the point across. But there are limits that understanding through such literal ways of talking about these things such as some externalized "being" imposes upon us. It is like that understanding as a child, Paul speaks of. To say it is metaphor, does not mean it's not real. It simply empowers us to get into what it truly is and meet it and overcome it, rather than fearing it as some 'boogie man' in the night. That has it's place and time in understanding, but is very limited.

Thank you for expressing your perspective. At one time, I had a very abstract view about satan. I believe God in His mercy had to open my spiritual eyes and allow me to see the reality and power of this evil being over which I had no control whatsoever. Only then did I realize how desperately I needed a Savior, the only One who can overcome the power of the evil one.

You are in my prayers.

 

[Windwalker]

Thank you for expressing your perspective. At one time, I had a very abstract view about satan. I believe God in His mercy had to open my spiritual eyes and allow me to see the reality and power of this evil being over which I had no control whatsoever. Only then did I realize how desperately I needed a Savior, the only One who can overcome the power of the evil one.

You are in my prayers.

I pretty sure you weren't understanding it as I do. When you say you believed you had control over it, then this does not reflect my understanding. We don't have power over it using the ordinary will power. We need something higher. You don't understand how I perceive things. And that's okay.

All souls are in my prayers. Not to understand as I do. But to find Truth in themselves, in their ways, whatever path that is.

 

[Windwalker]

So coming back to something missed. Do you understand what the subconscious mind is?

 

[Jollybear]

I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. A person cannot discern truth or deception by feelings of joy. I have read and personally heard accounts of the way Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and by doing so is able to deceive naive humans with incredible feelings and experiences of (counterfeit) blissful peace and love. Here is one account from Randall Baer below:

I still disagree, here is why. Yes satan can give a temporary happyness, but happyness is NOT JOY. The sensation of happyness is not deep within, it's not rapturious, it's not glorious, it does not bubble deep from your gut like joy does. Happyness is just that which feels nice, you like what's going on, you consider it a wonderful experience. It's not deep like joy is. The fruit of the Spirit is love, peace and joy and more. Satan cannot bear the same fruit as the Holy Spirit does. Satan does not have joy, peace, love, he does not have the pressence of God which has all of this. Satan cannot give what he does not have. Satan at his essence is darkness, true he may maskerade with light, but it will not be the same light as God's light. His light will be like looking at the wonderful sunset sky, it makes you happy to look at it, but the light does not pierce you with an overwhelming blissfull joy as God's light does. Satans light would be just like the sunset, that's ALL it would be like. Give me scripture that states that Satan can give joy? Bet you can't. I'm very well versed you know. Can you?

"In my New Age days, I was quite adept at inducing and expanding the limits of mystical and out-of-body experiences – this was one of the big reasons for much of my success. I would mount myself up with all kinds of New Age inventions and crystals, and then thrust myself into trance-induced higher states of consciousness. It would feel like I was being transported by winged angels and loving forces to an incredible variety of dazzling extra-natural domains. The sensation of my spirit being released from Earthbound, bodily restrictions and freed to roam the unlimited expanses of the cosmos was breathtaking. Here it was, the freedom, the light, and the truth that I had been searching for all my life. I had found the keys that opened the heavens before my very eyes."

"One night, while in the Ascension Chamber, my spirit was roaming some of the farthest reaches of ‘heavenly light’ that I had ever perceived. That night I had an experience that would change my life forever.

During this experience I was surrounded by a virtually overwhelming luminosity – it was as if I was looking straight into the sun. Waves of bliss radiated through my spirit. I was totally captivated by the power.

Suddenly, another force stepped in. It took me by complete surprise. In the twinkling of an eye, it was like a supernatural hand had taken me behind the scenes of the experience that I was having. I was taken behind the outer covering of the dazzling luminosity and there saw something that left me literally shaking for a full week.
What I saw was the face of devouring darkness! Behind the glittering outer facade of beauty lay a massively powerful, wildly churning face of absolute hatred and unspeakable abominations – the face of demons filled with the power of Satan."

Christian Testimonies - Inside the New Age Nightmare

So, this guy interprets seeing the demon as a sighn that the whole experience was the devil then? That's foolishness to interpret things like that. If I were to go on vacation and someone steels my wallet, does that mean the whole experience of my vacation was evil and a big set up for my wallet to get stolen? Obviously not. When we experience God, does satan like that? Obviously not. When we experience God and get closer to him, satan is going to attack us, and the closer we get, the more vicious he will get. So it's not unreasable that this guy would see a demon, of course the devil is going to bring oposition. But we should not run from it, we should "stand firm then with the full armor of God on" not run, that does not help us to grow stronger as God wants.

Plus, sometimes God reveals things to us in symbols, so perhaps he was trying to show this guy something he needed to face. Theirs many cases, so this could be it as well. Satan cannot give you joy, he does not have it to give. How can he give joy when he does not have it to give, tell me that one?

Also their are more ways to test the spirits. You look at the actions of the spirit, what is their plans, what do they want from you? What are their confessions, do they line up with the word of God? Do they exult Jesus? All of these are ways to test spirits, along with does the spirit bring joy?

 

[Shiranui117]

Forgive me for my absence; I've been slammed with work the past few days and just got my wisdom teeth pulled today, so I've been sort of distracted.

Well when you think about it further, it's not the spirit world and being in it that is unsafe, it would be interacting with those demons or angels of light that are demons in a mask that would be dangerious. But my point is, you don't have to be out of body to come into contact with a demon, one can come into contact with you through your mind as your in your body, so, in light of this, what would it matter if you were in the spirit realm? If anything, being in the spirit realm, you would then be able to SEE the demon up front as he is, or you would be able to see the angel of light upfront and then you could "test the spirits" just as the bible says to do. We have to "test the spirits" anyway, whether we are in or out of the body. So, in light of that, what would it matter?

True God created our souls to inhabit the body, but the souls will come out of the body at death, so what does it matter if you have a glimps before death? Also well experienced astral projectors who have seen people sleeping have said everyone when they sleep comes out of their body, they just don't remember it or try to do it.

A soldier can make dozens of forays into the frontier or enemy territory a hundred times and never have an incident. But he is still far safer within the walls of his citadel; if the enemy attacks, he is already in a safe position and is not likely to be captured. His chances far from the safety of the citadel, however, are far lower, and if he is attacked, his chances of escaping misfortune are likewise far lower. He would be far more comfortable within safe territory where he knows he can manage attacks better and run much lower risks of being overwhelmed.

Ok, going along with your line of thinking here, if i take a walk and marvel at God's creation and say "how manifold are your works, O Lord, in wisdom have you made them all!" that would be good. Ok, now i induce an out of body experience, fly up and outside the milky way galaxy and look down at it and say in acstacy "how manifold are your works, O Lord, in wisdom have you made them all!" would that not be good?

You could say that, but do you have to really fly trillions of miles outside of the galaxy in order to just say that? Are not the most minute things of God's creation right around you also glorious and manifesting His power and wisdom?

But inducing an out of body experience, how is it like jumping off a bridge? Jumping off a brindge would kill you, inducing an out of body experience won't kill you, or even hurt you, if you think it can hurt you, how could it?

I have outlined the risks and dangers involved many times, and you yourself have mentioned some of these.

None of the information on how to have an out of body experience is important to our salvation, just like all information about home improvement is not important to our salvation, information about gardening is not important to our salvation, information about cars is not important to our salvation, information about computers, list can go on and on, but is that mean the information is not good information or useful? of course not.

Home improvement, knowing about cars, and gardening are all things that are useful or even needful for our bodily survival in this world. Out of body experiences are neither needful nor particularly useful.

Sorry, let me define what i meant by more directly, i should not have used that word. Your right, we can contact God directly whether we are IN or out of the body. What i mean is, when we contact God IN the body, we tend to feel the light of peace and joy that is unspeakable it's that amazing, but we don't SEE his pressence, we feel it. Well if you were to experience the same peace and joy while out of the body, you would not just feel it, you would SEE it. So this joy and peace that lights upon you, you would literally see a LIGHT come upon you when you are out of your body. That is what i am talking about, you would experience him on a different level or different way. In other words, it's just a variation with experiencing him directly.

You can see God's glory within the body as well; a student of St. Seraphim of Sarov's saw the Divine Light shining through the Saint's eyes, and St. Seraphim said that both of them had been bathed in this light. Both were still in the body at the time of this experience, and were having a conversation.

St Seraphim of Sarov: transfiguration by the Spirit | Gabriel

So, IOW, an out of body experience does not really give you a "more direct" connection to God than what you would have in the body. The same exact thing can be achieved whether in or out of the body by God's grace, and through persistence, vigilance, prayer, fasting, faith and humility.

 

[Jollybear]

Forgive me for my absence; I've been slammed with work the past few days and just got my wisdom teeth pulled today, so I've been sort of distracted.

It's ok, im glad your back, im enjoying our discussion and appreciate your responses.

A soldier can make dozens of forays into the frontier or enemy territory a hundred times and never have an incident. But he is still far safer within the walls of his citadel; if the enemy attacks, he is already in a safe position and is not likely to be captured. His chances far from the safety of the citadel, however, are far lower, and if he is attacked, his chances of escaping misfortune are likewise far lower. He would be far more comfortable within safe territory where he knows he can manage attacks better and run much lower risks of being overwhelmed.

It sounds like your saying THIS body of flesh, bones, blood, organs and muscle is armor against the demonic? And this is not true. This body is not "walls of a citadel" against the enemy. Even Paul in the New Testament defines for us what the armor is, he says in esphesians 6:10-18 "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people."

Also here is another quote in Matthew 12:43-45 "43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

This passage clearly shows that your house (body) is clearly not percieved by the demon as armor or a wall of a citadel.

You could say that, but do you have to really fly trillions of miles outside of the galaxy in order to just say that? Are not the most minute things of God's creation right around you also glorious and manifesting His power and wisdom?

Right, I COULD say that. And no you don't HAVE to fly trillions of miles outside the galaxy in order to praise God for his wondrious works, you can say it in the body. But, if you WANT to fly out trillions of miles and look down at the milkyway and tell God "how wonderfull are your works o Lord, how great your handy work, your power and glory is so vast" what would be so wrong with that? And could a demon look at that and even want to be near you as you say it? The bible says "God inhabits the praises of his people" so if you are up their trillions of miles up and praising God, is a demon going to "inhabit" that? Not when God inhabits it. Also to fly trillions of miles up to look down at the milky way, is relatively an easy feat ONCE your out of your body, just thinking of going to a place, you shoot their like a light rocket. So, it's not like it would be hard. The only hard part is projecting out of the body. But my point is, if we are praising God looking at the milky way after flown up their, what is so bad about it? Arent we FREE to roam within God's creation? Science does it all the time, Nasa seeks to fly in ships as far out in space as possible. Oceanologests seek to dive deeper into the ocean and explore, arent we free to do all of that? Nothing wrong with that right? So why would it be any different with this?

I have outlined the risks and dangers involved many times, and you yourself have mentioned some of these.

The risks you mention though are very vague at best and at worst are non existent. The only dangers I mentioned are the SAME dangers we incounter IN the body. The dangers we incounter outside the body are the exact SAME ones IN the body. The devils war stradegies are the same whether we are in or out of the body. The body as my point above shows, is NOT armor or the wall of a citadel.

Home improvement, knowing about cars, and gardening are all things that are useful or even needful for our bodily survival in this world. Out of body experiences are neither needful nor particularly useful.

The ONLY thing that is needful for the survival of our body in this world is food and water information. Cars, home improvement, gardening, TV's, stario's, animals, electronics, all of that is information that is nice and useful for our COMFORT and INJOYMENT in life, but it's not needed for our bodily survival.

And yes out of body experiences are like that, nice information, CAN be useful, just like a stario can be useful, TV can be useful, houses can be useful, cars can be useful. What is the use of an out of body experience? Let me give you a whole list of things off the top of my head. First to verify for yourself that the spirit realm is real, secondly, to give you a foretaste of what death is SOMEWHAT like before it happens. Thirdly, to help you learn the spirit realm through exploration. Fourthly, to experience God in a different WAY (way not meaning directly in this context, but variation). 6th, to find out hidden knowledge in locations of the earth amongs peoples. Their could be more uses for this that i am just not thinking off, but these are a good list right here of uses.

You can see God's glory within the body as well; a student of St. Seraphim of Sarov's saw the Divine Light shining through the Saint's eyes, and St. Seraphim said that both of them had been bathed in this light. Both were still in the body at the time of this experience, and were having a conversation.

St Seraphim of Sarov: transfiguration by the Spirit | Gabriel

Again, their are many variations of experiences with God, true you can have "open visions" or "apparitions" of God IN the body, absolutely. But it's just another variation. What makes one variation better then another? God's creation is FULL of variations. I don't doubt that his experience was God either, but just for the sake of argument and making a point here, just because someone has this experience IN the body and they SEE light upon them, would they STILL not have to "TEST" the spirits? You see, we have to test the spirits whether we are IN or OUT of the body. If you see light out of the body, you have to test the spirits, and if you see light in the body, you have to test the spirits. So, what does it matter if your in or out?

So, IOW, an out of body experience does not really give you a "more direct" connection to God than what you would have in the body. The same exact thing can be achieved whether in or out of the body by God's grace, and through persistence, vigilance, prayer, fasting, faith and humility.

Im not saying an out of body experience gives you a more direct experience with God, i am saying it gives you another variation of experience with God.

Also this might bring us down a slight rabbit trail, but you have mentioned that an experience with God can be achieved by God's GRACE, and through persistence, vigilance, prayer, fasting, faith and humility. Well, grace is a gift, unmerited favor of God, persistence is a WORK, vigilance is a WORK, prayer is a WORK, fasting is a WORK, faith COULD be a WORK, and humility is a WORK. Does our WORKS bring us into experience with God? Or is it by his GRACE that does it THROUGH faith? I could so EASILY say that inducing an out of body experience is a WORK, because it is, but so are the things you mentioned. Just, how are your works superior over the works of meditation or mind work to inducing OBE?

 

[Shiranui117]

This sounds good, i agree, i like it. You never experienced this unspeakable joy? Or the river of tears? I have experienced both, not all the time though.

I have experienced a strong amount of joy (typically whenever I make a decision that is firmly in line with God's will). But, as the Fathers would say, I shed tears like how I shed drops of blood--i.e. with great difficulty. But I'm not quite sure if I've experienced either after deep prayer; my prayer hasn't gone that deep yet. I doubt I could say I've even truly experienced Prayer of the Heart yet, or contemplation, or hesychia.

 

[Jollybear]

I have experienced a strong amount of joy (typically whenever I make a decision that is firmly in line with God's will). But, as the Fathers would say, I shed tears like how I shed drops of blood--i.e. with great difficulty. But I'm not quite sure if I've experienced either after deep prayer; my prayer hasn't gone that deep yet. I doubt I could say I've even truly experienced Prayer of the Heart yet, or contemplation, or hesychia.

you havn't prayed from the heart yet? I don't understand?

 

[Shiranui117]

It's ok, im glad your back, im enjoying our discussion and appreciate your responses.

Likewise. Sorry again for my absence, I had a busy period again.

It sounds like your saying THIS body of flesh, bones, blood, organs and muscle is armor against the demonic? And this is not true. This body is not "walls of a citadel" against the enemy. Even Paul in the New Testament defines for us what the armor is, he says in esphesians 6:10-18 "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people."

Also here is another quote in Matthew 12:43-45 "43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

This passage clearly shows that your house (body) is clearly not percieved by the demon as armor or a wall of a citadel.

But it most certainly is familiar territory.

Right, I COULD say that. And no you don't HAVE to fly trillions of miles outside the galaxy in order to praise God for his wondrious works, you can say it in the body. But, if you WANT to fly out trillions of miles and look down at the milkyway and tell God "how wonderfull are your works o Lord, how great your handy work, your power and glory is so vast" what would be so wrong with that? And could a demon look at that and even want to be near you as you say it? The bible says "God inhabits the praises of his people" so if you are up their trillions of miles up and praising God, is a demon going to "inhabit" that? Not when God inhabits it. Also to fly trillions of miles up to look down at the milky way, is relatively an easy feat ONCE your out of your body, just thinking of going to a place, you shoot their like a light rocket. So, it's not like it would be hard. The only hard part is projecting out of the body. But my point is, if we are praising God looking at the milky way after flown up their, what is so bad about it? Arent we FREE to roam within God's creation? Science does it all the time, Nasa seeks to fly in ships as far out in space as possible. Oceanologests seek to dive deeper into the ocean and explore, arent we free to do all of that? Nothing wrong with that right? So why would it be any different with this?

First to verify for yourself that the spirit realm is real,

Out of body experiences are not necessary for this.

secondly, to give you a foretaste of what death is SOMEWHAT like before it happens.

Sleep fills that role, as well as visions of the right kind. In fact, it's improper for Christians to speak of someone "dying." Rather, they have "fallen asleep in the Lord."

Thirdly, to help you learn the spirit realm through exploration.

What is the benefit of this?

Fourthly, to experience God in a different WAY (way not meaning directly in this context, but variation).

What benefits does this different way have as opposed to other ways?

6th, to find out hidden knowledge in locations of the earth amongs peoples.

What sorts of hidden knowledge?

Im not saying an out of body experience gives you a more direct experience with God, i am saying it gives you another variation of experience with God.

How does it differ? How does being in the "spirit realm" make encounters with God different? Yes, you're out of your body, but what difference does that even make?

Also this might bring us down a slight rabbit trail, but you have mentioned that an experience with God can be achieved by God's GRACE, and through persistence, vigilance, prayer, fasting, faith and humility. Well, grace is a gift, unmerited favor of God, persistence is a WORK, vigilance is a WORK, prayer is a WORK, fasting is a WORK, faith COULD be a WORK, and humility is a WORK. Does our WORKS bring us into experience with God? Or is it by his GRACE that does it THROUGH faith? I could so EASILY say that inducing an out of body experience is a WORK, because it is, but so are the things you mentioned. Just, how are your works superior over the works of meditation or mind work to inducing OBE?

Faith and works are not dichotomized in Orthodox Christianity the way they are in the West. They are two sides of the same coin, two parts of one whole. In fact, we don't even speak of "faith and/vs. works" in Orthodoxy, unless the person in question speaking comes from a Protestant or Catholic background. We just speak of "living the Faith." Also in Orthodoxy, we have the ancient Christian concept of synergia, or cooperating with God's grace for our salvation and improvement and repentance. So I'm afraid your attempt to stir the waters with faith vs. works and man's effort vs. God's grace has fallen flat on its face here.

 

[Shiranui117]

you havn't prayed from the heart yet? I don't understand?

If by "pray from the heart," you mean "heartfelt prayer," then rest assured, I have heartfelt prayer all the time, don't misunderstand me.

But Prayer of the Heart is a different beast. It's difficult for me to describe, really. If you like, I can try to give my best explanation.

 

[Windwalker]

What is the use of an out of body experience? Let me give you a whole list of things off the top of my head. First to verify for yourself that the spirit realm is real

This is getting back to my question about the spiritual value of such practices. I'll pick that up again here.

The reality of our spiritual nature to me seems far more verified by experiencing it without leaving the body in the sense you describe. What happens for me is such a profound all-encompassing, all-pervading presence in mind and body that it is undeniable in its immediacy. From your earlier descriptions of an OBE is doesn't seem to convey that in any sort of direct manner. It seems more an implied suggestion.

, secondly, to give you a foretaste of what death is SOMEWHAT like before it happens.

Knowing ones true nature through meditation removes one from the clinging to the body-identification, or ego-identification, and the nature of who we are spiritually becomes clear. Death becomes simply a passage of change, and yet you remain. That which you are never dies.

Thirdly, to help you learn the spirit realm through exploration.

But in what regards? I asked before about insights gained, and you said there really wasn't any. I can tell you easily that understanding the nature of what that domain is, is the entire point of meditation on that level. It's called insight meditation for a reason.

Fourthly, to experience God in a different WAY (way not meaning directly in this context, but variation).

I would say maybe in the sense of experiencing life in a different way gives a different perspective to reality. In that sense it offers another way to look at God, as there are many ways to do so. Experiencing God directly, is also a way to really expose the spirit to the world.

6th, to find out hidden knowledge in locations of the earth amongs peoples.

Studying about cultures, or participating with others also exposes these things.

So then I wonder what I'm missing? It seems to sound like it's more just interesting or even recreational in some ways, than a deeply spiritual experience.