"God and I are one." Who is the "I"? Are you referring the "I" as us human?
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
John Martin
Active Member
This 'I' is not our human 'I'. This is not our body, our soul or our spirit. It is the ground that supports these three. This 'I' is the ground of our human consciousness. When we discover that the ground of our human consciousness is God we also discover that the ground of the universe is same God. Instead of saying God and I are one it is wise to say that my infinite self or true self or real self is God.
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Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
Hi BornAgain, I just wanted to give you another point of view for the sake of variety
.The life that God breathed into Adam (Genesis 2:7) was more than just animal life; it was the breath of God, resulting in a being with a soul. Adam was created spiritually alive, connected to God in a special way. He enjoyed a relationship with God, but when he sinned, that relationship was broken. Spiritual death has implications both before and after physical death. Though Adam was still physically alive (but beginning the dying process), he became spiritually dead, separated from relationship with God. In this present life on earth, the effect of spiritual death is the loss of God's favor as well as the knowledge of and desire for God. Scripture is clear that everyone begins life dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-5), resulting in a life focused on our sinful desires. Jesus taught that the remedy for spiritual death is a spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-5) through faith in Him. This rebirth is a re-connection to the source of life, which Jesus pictured in John 15:1-6. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Without being connected to Him, we have no life in us, but when we have Jesus, we have real life (1 John 5:11-12). - How is physical death related to spiritual death?
Are you saying that you are god?
How do you separate the "I" from the human self to be able to discover human consciousness when the Human consciousness is the body, soul, and spirit?
Human consciousness, and all creations, and the universe according to you are fibrously connected because they have the same ground.
Are you saying that all creations are part of the universe with one foundation? And if so, then it cannot be separated. When one say I, one meant the human self, or human consciousness since all creations belongs to the same universe that have the same foundation or ground.
The bishops of Rome once claimed this blasphemous titles to the pope.
Dominus deus noster papa - our lord god the pope;
deus alter in terra - another god on earth;
Idem est dominium dei et papae - the dominion of God and the pope is the same.
When you, John Martin, say "I", you meant you are god, or deus alter in terra - another god on earth.
Read 2nd Thessalonians 2:4
John Martin
Active Member
Are you saying that you are god?
There is only one God, one infinite reality.
My 'I' identified with the my body is not God, not infinite.
My 'I' identified with my soul is not God, not infinite.
My 'I' identified with my spirit( image and likeness of God, is not God, not infinite.
My 'I' beyond these three is God, infinite.
How do you separate the "I" from the human self to be able to discover human consciousness when the Human consciousness is the body, soul, and spirit?
Human consciousness is not just body, soul and spirit. It can go beyond these three and enter into the divine consciousness. Human consciousness is not static but it oscillates between the body and divine.
Human consciousness, and all creations, and the universe according to you are fibrously connected because they have the same ground.
Yes, the ground of all creatures and human consciousness is the same divine consciousness. There are all interconnected. The way this divine consciousness reflects in each creature is different.
Are you saying that all creations are part of the universe with one foundation?
Yes.
And if so, then it cannot be separated.
Yes, it cannot be separated.
When one say “I”, one meant the human self, or human consciousness since all creations belongs to the same universe that have the same foundation or ground.
When someone says 'I' it depends with what one identifies:
I can be with one's body,
I can be with one's soul,
I can be with one's family,
I can be with one's nationality,
I can be with one^s belief or religion
I can be with one's ethnic group
I can united with the whole of humanity
I can be united with the whole of creation
I can be united with God.
We use I in different ways in different occasions. Everything depends with what we identify. I is not static. It is always fluctuating or oscillating.
When you, John Martin, say "I", you meant you are god, or deus alter in terra - another god on earth.
There is only one God. There is no another God on the earth, including the Popes.
I, John Martin, as the combination of Body,Soul and Spirit is a vehicle of God, a horse to God. The 'I' which rides on this horse is God. There is no God but God.
The rider is the infinite. He has no beginning and the end.The horse is a finite being. It has the beginning and the end. The whole of creation is a vehicle of God- Master Eckhart said every creature is a word of God. Creation is sacred. it is the body of God. Only human beings are gifted to become conscious of this truth.
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Your religion is not absolute. Your statements differs from your other statements.
For example you stated that;
You wrote,
If God is divine and our spirit is like the image of God, then our spirit must be divine also. Divine is infinite.
You wrote,
If I can translate the my infinte self or true self or real self to, or as a human spirit, then the my infinte self or true self or real self is divine. Therefore, when you say the I you meant the I as the divine, or the I as your spirit in relationship with God.
God is Spirit; divine and infinite, and human is spirit; divine and infinite.
Joh4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
How can you go beyond human consciousness if part of this consciousness is your spirit which is divine. Divine is infinite.
You wrote,
How can the body oscillates between the divine? No one can worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the body. Body or physical cannot worship the divine. Spirit to spirit only.
Joh4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You wrote,
How can a material thing oscillates or move back and forth from the divine/subjectively to the body/objectively? According to you the soul is the center of a human being. The soul through body relates to the physical environment, while the soul to the spirit relates to the spiritual environment which is the divine. If it is the spirit -part of human consciousness- that relates to the divine, then the I is you, or your spirit and cannot go beyond or get out of the human consciousness, the body, the soul, and the spirit.
Your religion is not absolute, it has flaws.
That is the reason why one cannot mix the bible with other religion, or gods, or writing, or philosophies. The bible is the absolute written word of the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Everytime one mix other writings with the bible one will see flaws.
For example you stated that;
You wrote,
If God is divine and our spirit is like the image of God, then our spirit must be divine also. Divine is infinite.
You wrote,
If I can translate the my infinte self or true self or real self to, or as a human spirit, then the my infinte self or true self or real self is divine. Therefore, when you say the I you meant the I as the divine, or the I as your spirit in relationship with God.
God is Spirit; divine and infinite, and human is spirit; divine and infinite.
Joh4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
How can you go beyond human consciousness if part of this consciousness is your spirit which is divine. Divine is infinite.
You wrote,
Infinite is divine. Human spirit is beyond time and space. If human spirit is beyond time and space, then it must be infinite and divine, but you wrote that human spirit is not infinite, therefore it is not divine. If human spirit is not infinite nor divine then your statement,
Is not absolute.
How can the body oscillates between the divine? No one can worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the body. Body or physical cannot worship the divine. Spirit to spirit only.
Joh4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You wrote,
How can a material thing oscillates or move back and forth from the divine/subjectively to the body/objectively? According to you the soul is the center of a human being. The soul through body relates to the physical environment, while the soul to the spirit relates to the spiritual environment which is the divine. If it is the spirit -part of human consciousness- that relates to the divine, then the I is you, or your spirit and cannot go beyond or get out of the human consciousness, the body, the soul, and the spirit.
Your religion is not absolute, it has flaws.
That is the reason why one cannot mix the bible with other religion, or gods, or writing, or philosophies. The bible is the absolute written word of the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Everytime one mix other writings with the bible one will see flaws.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is no dualism. God is One. There is no divide between spirit and matter, because all matter comes from God.
One sees flaws because the bible is a human construct -- not a Divine construct. It was written by many authors from many perspectives about God. You may as well see and treat it for what it is, rather than what you'd like it to be.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Born Again,
thank you very much for your response.I do appreciate your comments. We are arguing from two different points of view. Your arguments are based on two visions: dualistic monotheism for human beings and non- dualistic monotheism for Christ. In the dualistic monotheism there is only one God and human beings are creatures of God. In non -dualistic monotheism there in only one God and human beings comes from that one God and return to that God and realize being ultimately one with God. For you Christ is one with God and rest of the human beings are creatures of God. This vision creates spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians and also other human beings. I am presenting my views from non-dualistic monotheism alone: there is only one God and everyone comes from that one God and returns to that God. I am proposing that the experience Jesus had,is a possibility to every human being and not limited to Jesus Christ alone. Jesus said: I am the light of the world and you are the light of the world'. These two statements constitute the good news of Jesus. I am not arguing that Jesus Christ alone is one with God.I am arguing that every human being has this possibility.
This is the fundamental question. Do you believe that only Jesus Christ is one with God? or everyone has this possibility?
My belief is that everyone has this possibility.
Realizing being one with God does not make one proud or does not make one fee superior to others. It makes a person very humble. Jesus Christ said, the Father and I are one' and then he washed the feet of his disciples. He was at the service of his disciples to help them to realize their oneness with God. I think it is St.Irenius who said:God became a human being in order to make human beings divine.
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2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Have you read the bible?
Where did you base your assumption about the bible?
Is it base on your own philosophy/opinion, or your religion?
What is the foundation of Celtic Christian? By using the word “Christian” in your religion, they must have based it on the bible.
Did you know the word “Christian” came from the bible?
Act11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
1Pe4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
The meaning of the word “Christian” is adherent of Christ. Christ + ianos or in Greek Christianos. The Latin termination -IANOS, often designated the servants of the one whose name it was compounded. The word “servants” is “doulos” in Greek. Metaphorically of spiritual, moral, and ethical condition.
Romans1:1 PAUL, a servant/doulos of Jesus Christ, called/kletos to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
By means of the gospel, Christ called/kletos or invited Paul to be an apostle and that is how he became His servant.
By means of the gospel, sinners were called/kletos, or invited spiritually and became servant spiritually of Christ, and that is how they became Christians.
Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called/kletos of Jesus Christ:
Now, if you do not believe that the bible is the absolute written word of God, then your faith is in vain. On the other hand, why use the word “Christian” in your religion if you do not believe in the bible?
This is a good example of mixing other religions with words written in the bible. You want to be called a Christian, but you do not believe where the word “Christian” came from. If the word “Christian” did not come from God, then your faith is base on human philosophies. Therefore, if base on human philosophies, your god is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then, your god is your mind.
True Christianity in not something that was done in a corner.
Act26:26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
Act26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Act26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
Act26:29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
What was Paul saying here?
Paul was saying that Christianity is not a man made religion fabricated in a corner as some people thought it was.
Please read the bible.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I interpret scripture according to the Holy Spirit in me.
If you mean a separate entity, then it is Biblical truth that I was created and God was not. If you mean apart from God, I believe I am never in that state. Of you mean that I believe my thinking is different from God's thinking then that is true to an extent but it is God who is doing the interpeting.
I believe God was incarnated at conception according to scripture.
I believe it is better for you to align with God's thinking than to retain your own.
Muffled
Jesus in me
That isn't exactly true. The Holy Spirit verifies that His words are correctly reported in the scripture.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Hi BornAgain, I just wanted to give you another point of view for the sake of variety
The life that God breathed into Adam (Genesis 2:7) was more than just animal life; it was the breath of God, resulting in a being with a soul. Adam was created spiritually alive, connected to God in a special way. He enjoyed a relationship with God, but when he sinned, that relationship was broken. Spiritual death has implications both before and after physical death. Though Adam was still physically alive (but beginning the dying process), he became spiritually dead, separated from relationship with God. In this present life on earth, the effect of spiritual death is the loss of God's favor as well as the knowledge of and desire for God. Scripture is clear that everyone begins life dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-5), resulting in a life focused on our sinful desires. Jesus taught that the remedy for spiritual death is a spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-5) through faith in Him. This rebirth is a re-connection to the source of life, which Jesus pictured in John 15:1-6. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Without being connected to Him, we have no life in us, but when we have Jesus, we have real life (1 John 5:11-12). - How is physical death related to spiritual death?
I believe there is nothing in this verse that says God breathed Himself into Adam. Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I believe this is also not in the text. Adam was created before life was breathed in.
This is probably a more accurate understanding of breathing life into Adam ie that his body was physically alive before the inspiration but only became a living soul after the inspiration.
You have a good argument here, but I cannot figure out your exact thoughts on this one. If you are thinking of Romans chapter 6, then I have to agree with you.
Totally mis-quoted these words supposed to have been said by the Lord Jesus Christ. No where in the bible youll find these words together.
If you are not arguing then you must be agreeing that Jesus Christ alone is one with God, and the ONLY Son of God.
In a court of law, one can argue base on the evidence presented from both sides. All arguments should be base on something, and that is the written law of the land, and not base on hunches.
For example, if the law of the land says that one cannot kill, and if one does, regardless of the reason, one will go to jail. In others words one cannot take another person to the court if this another person steal. The court of the law will throw you out because your argument is not base on the written law of the land.
Now, if you are arguing that human being has this possibility, to be one with God like Christ, then present it with written statement from the bible otherwise your argument is empty.
Yes and with conviction! I believed that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Son of God. When the Lord Jesus Christ said in,
Joh10:30 I and my Father are one.
What was the reaction of the Jews?
Joh10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Then the Lord Jesus Christ replied again and said I am the Son of God,
Joh10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The train of thoughts here is, I and the Father are One, blasphemy because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. said the Jews, the Lord Jesus Christ answered, because I said, I am the Son of God?
There was no misunderstanding, or denying on the Lord Jesus Christs part when He said, I and the Father are One, and the Jews, because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. and I am the Son of God as God.
On the other hand, the Jews misunderstood the, I and the Father are One as God, but to Christ, God and the Son of God are ONE.
The Lord Jesus Christs argument on this is,
Joh10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
If, then, these terms can be applied to ordinary mortals or even angels, how could the Lord Jesus Christ be accused of blasphemy when He applied them to Himself, the One whom the Father set apart and sent into the world? The Lord Jesus Christ was not offering a false claim; He was merely asserting what He was by right.
From the human/flesh side of understanding -the Jews- I and the Father are One is considered as God and blasphemous, but from the spiritual side -the Lord Jesus Christ- I and the Father are One and I am the Son of God? is God and not blasphemous.
Joh3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Flesh understand only flesh, but spirit understand spirit.
1Co2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Is Christ God? Yes! and with conviction! It is written according to the scriptures. Can one proves otherwise from the scriptures that Christ is not God?
Heb1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Why did God called His Son -Jesus Christ- God, if Christ is not God?
Tit2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Joh20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Rom9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Phi2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Can you argue with these written verses about the deity of Christ?
Moreover, you want to argue the possibility that this also could happen to every human being. Without any written statement on how these things can happen, I think you will need more than just a theory to convince people about your religion. You will need hundreds of years of theoretical writings about this theory for people to believe you.
Your proposal is very dangerous. You are freestyling, or experimenting with human souls here. This is not just something one could lose and just slept over it. We are talking about eternal life or eternal damnation.
Do you believe that there is eternal damnation or eternal death in hell, and eternal life with God? I do!
You cannot mix the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the gods of the Hindus or the Upanishads, or any other gods. There is no such thing as, all gods, or all religions will leads to one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
God made it clear in, Exodus20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The word OTHER is heteros in Greek, and in English, heterosexual or different.
"Thou shalt have no other/heteros/different gods before Me.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I had some free time and something pulled me to look at this site and see what has been going on... Anyways, i was reading a book that had brought up the Universe and how Time, Space, and Matter make up our 1 Universe. All of Time, All of Matter, and all of Space make up 1 Universe, yet we have 1 Universe.
Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
Gen 18:3 and said, " My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
Can God be 3 men if he so chooses to be? Isnt God, God?
in Love,
tom
Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
Gen 18:3 and said, " My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
Can God be 3 men if he so chooses to be? Isnt God, God?
in Love,
tom
Shermana
Heretic
So God Himself went to Sodom in the form of Two different beings?
Shermana
Heretic
Makesty thyself a god.
The Trinity Delusion: John 10:33
Which fully explains why Jesus would react as you note:
Obviously it's referring to the "Class of being of a god" and not "God Himself".
This commonly mistranslated phrase stems from a completely dishonest wording of the Hebrew quote of the Psalm which has no vocative case. It's "Thy throne is (the) God" or along those lines of "(The) God has given you your throne".
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2645.htm
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
how do you see Gen 19:24 where Jehovah rained down sulfur from Jehovah in Heaven?
however, i had simply said that God can express himself as 3 persons or men if he so chooses. To say he cannot would be limiting God. (as Gen 18:1-3 shows) These 3 men are called Jehovah and Gods word says Jehovah appeared as these 3 men.
What is your point you are trying to show with Gen 19?
In Love,
Tom
Shermana
Heretic
God can do anything He wants. However that does not mean He is those 3 angels themselves, they may have simply accompanied Him. The point is that He most likely was not. Since he sent messengers to check out Sodom and not Himself, it specifically says that.
As for Genesis 19:24, that could either be a grammar issue like saying "He sent it down from Himself" or it may relate to the concept of the Targumic Memra, or it may be a transmission error.
Here is the Jews for Judaism response to this:
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