Neurosurgeon's Seven Day Near Death Experience

[Skwim]

We don't really get the full story (unless I didn't read it properly). Perhaps he had his experience between the cortex "turning on" and waking up?

People's memories aren't always reliable either.

From the article.

"When I entered the emergency room that morning, my chances of survival in anything beyond a vegetative state were already low. They soon sank to near nonexistent. For seven days I lay in a deep coma, my body unresponsive, my higher-order brain functions totally offline.

Then, on the morning of my seventh day in the hospital, as my doctors weighed whether to discontinue treatment, my eyes popped open.

There is no scientific explanation for the fact that while my body lay in coma, my mind—my conscious, inner self—was alive and well. While the neurons of my cortex were stunned to complete inactivity by the bacteria that had attacked them, my brain-free consciousness journeyed to another, larger dimension of the universe: a dimension I’d never dreamed existed and which the old, pre-coma me would have been more than happy to explain was a simple impossibility."
​

In as much as the doctors were deciding whether or not to discontinue treatment I would assume the monitor to his brain was still showing no activiy, and at which time he suddenly came to. So I doubt there was any in-between time for the experience to manifest itself.

 

[mycorrhiza]

In as much as the doctors were deciding whether or not to discontinue treatment I would assume the monitor to his brain was still showing no activiy, and at which time he suddenly came to. So I doubt there was any in-between time for the experience to manifest itself.

He could be exaggerating or not remembering the story correctly, such things happen all the time. I'm not saying that he does, but it's still a possibility.

EDIT: I'm googling a bit, and I can't seem to find any medical evidence for this. It's quite similar to other stories I've read, and none of them seem to have any evidence to back it up. All stories. If there actually is medical evidence, it would be nice to see it!

 

[Skwim]

He could be exaggerating or not remembering the story correctly, such things happen all the time. I'm not saying that he does, but it's still a possibility.

EDIT: I'm googling a bit, and I can't seem to find any medical evidence for this. It's quite similar to other stories I've read, and none of them seem to have any evidence to back it up. All stories. If there actually is medical evidence, it would be nice to see it!

I'm not sure what any medical evidence would consist of. Exactly what kind of medical evidence would you consider acceptable?

 

[Photonic]

May I?

Trends in Cognitive Sciences - There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences: how neuroscience can explain seeing bright lights, meeting the dead, or being convinced you are one of them

 

[mycorrhiza]

I'm not sure what any medical evidence would consist of. Exactly what kind of medical evidence would you consider acceptable?

I don't know. Of course we can't get any evidence for his experience, but at least there could be medical records that say that his cerebral cortex was fully shut down and then recovered the very moment he regained consciousness. But I must say that I really don't know what the different parts of the brain do. Perhaps there's a possibility of dreaming, even with the cerebral cortex shut down. I don't even know if his story is medically possible, since I lack knowledge about the brain.

All I know is that I have heard similar stories (like someone being declared dead, and then half an hour later recovering and having seen visions of heaven, and someone else being in a coma and seeing heaven) and they never seem to provide any evidence that the actual medical events happened the way they describe them.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

May I?

Trends in Cognitive Sciences - There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences: how neuroscience can explain seeing bright lights, meeting the dead, or being convinced you are one of them

Please copy paste.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I'm not sure what any medical evidence would consist of. Exactly what kind of medical evidence would you consider acceptable?

Identical experiences by all subjects. Since the results are in fact, totally coincident with the religious beliefs of the individuals, and are not in agreement across the board, the surgeon's emotional conclusions can be safely dismissed as evidence.

His was an hallucination, occurring when his brain supposedly turned back on, and based on the packaged concepts of his lapsed [supposedly] Christianity.

 

[Magic Man]

I would imagine that when at sleep and dreaming the cortex shows activity, and when not dreaming the activity is absent. And, of course, the cortex was found to be inactive during his experience.

How do they know when his experience took place? I'm assuming the cortex was working by the time he woke up again.

 

[Magic Man]

Lots of cases. try this link www.nderf.org

I don't have time to read through the whole site. Could you pick out an example or two?

It can't be just some kind of dream when the experiencer knows veridical details (things he couldn't have known through normal means).

Sure, it can.

My main reason in asking for an example is to determine how we know they knew something they couldn't have known. Did they tell someone specifics when they woke up, and then the specifics turned out to be exactly right? Or was it more like a vague prophecy where it could easily be interpreted many different ways?

Without specific examples, it's hard to discuss.

 

[Skwim]

Identical experiences by all subjects. Since the results are in fact, totally coincident with the religious beliefs of the individuals, and are not in agreement across the board, the surgeon's emotional conclusions can be safely dismissed as evidence.

His was an hallucination, occurring when his brain supposedly turned back on, and based on the packaged concepts of his lapsed [supposedly] Christianity.

Your post here sent me to Google where I found the following.

"The Similarities Quantified

The similarities among NDEs are too great to be ignored. My own research has revealed the following statistics representing the similarities among 50 experiences:

Perc. Description of Similarity

69% experienced overwhelming love

65% experienced mental telepathy

62% experienced a life review

56% experienced a tremendous ecstasy

56% saw God

46% were given unlimited knowledge

46% experienced different afterlife levels

46% were told it was not their time to die

44% were shown some aspect of the future

42% went through a tunnel

37% met Jesus Christ

31% received and remembered forgotten knowledge

27% experienced fear

21% described it as a "homecoming"

21% were told of their past lives

19% experienced some form of hell

17% saw a "City of light"

13% saw a "Temple of Knowledge"

10% saw spirits dwelling among living people

6% resulted from a suicide attempt

0% saw the Devil
source
​

In the link the author also explains why there are differences in NDEs.

 

[Skwim]

How do they know when his experience took place? I'm assuming the cortex was working by the time he woke up again.

I'm sure it would have to be, and we only have his word.

All I know is that I have heard similar stories (like someone being declared dead, and then half an hour later recovering and having seen visions of heaven, and someone else being in a coma and seeing heaven) and they never seem to provide any evidence that the actual medical events happened the way they describe them.

I guess I wouldn't call them medical events any more than I would call dreaming a medical event. However, what I have found interesting are those accounts (don't have any links at hand) that describe NDEs in which the person is conscious outside his/her body and can see what is taking place in the room at the time, details which are later confirmed upon awakening.

 

[George-ananda]

May I?

Trends in Cognitive Sciences - There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences: how neuroscience can explain seeing bright lights, meeting the dead, or being convinced you are one of them

NDE scientists have given refutation to this line of argumentation. Among many weaknesses, they of the above mind-set don't even acknowledge the existance of veridical NDE's which would render their theory rather incomplete or wrong.

 

[George-ananda]

Identical experiences by all subjects.

Subjects don't even have 'identical' experiences to all kind of physical events let alone dieing.

Since the results are in fact, totally coincident with the religious beliefs of the individuals, and are not in agreement across the board, the surgeon's emotional conclusions can be safely dismissed as evidence.

No, experiencers have been of all kind including those with no afterlife belief. And the lack of particularly partisan religious symbols has been noted often by NDE researchers. The consensus is the afterlife is concerned with Love and not religion.

His was an hallucination, occurring when his brain supposedly turned back on,

I'm sure you have no evidence that it was an hallucination. And I think Veridical NDE's have pretty much ruled out the simple theories.

and based on the packaged concepts of his lapsed [supposedly] Christianity.

I'm of Hindu thought and don't see any partisan Christian bias in his report. Why wasn't Jesus or some other symbology the center of his experience?

 

[Photonic]

Subjects don't even have 'identical' experiences to all kind of physical events let alone dieing.



No, experiencers have been of all kind including those with no afterlife belief. And the lack of particularly partisan religious symbols has been noted often by NDE researchers. The consensus is the afterlife is concerned with Love and not religion.




I'm sure you have no evidence that it was an hallucination. That's just the theory most convenienant to people of a close-minded atheistic worldview. And I think Veridical NDE's have pretty much ruled out the simple theories.



I'm of Hindu thought and don't see any partisan Christian bias in his report. Why wasn't Jesus or some other symbology the center of his experience?

He describes a fairly universal description of what a Christian heaven would be. I would think his opinion would be incredibly biased.

Also, I can see your bias against atheists in general here. I don't think I trust your argument.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm sure it would have to be, and we only have his word.

Exactly.

 

[Magic Man]

NDE scientists have given refutation to this line of argumentation. Among many weaknesses, they of the above mind-set don't even acknowledge the existance of veridical NDE's which would render their theory rather incomplete or wrong.

You're assuming there's some reason to acknowledge the existence of such things. I'm still waiting for examples (as in specific examples, not a link to an entire site about NDEs).

 

[no-body]

To Outhouse and other skeptics;

What do you think about Veridical NDE's. Where the experiencers have knowledge of things they couldn't have learned in any normal way.

Because of this I don't think your opinion can possibly be correct. I think NDE's are strong evidence for continuation of consciousness at death as described by the Hindu and Buddhist masters.

A couple of explanations come to mind: family members or friends discuss these topics while the person is in a coma and they pick it up subconsciously. Or the mind draws back to childhood and picks up on these topics from the subconscious while the mind is shut down and uses them.

 

[George-ananda]

He describes a fairly universal description of what a Christian heaven would be. I would think his opinion would be incredibly biased.

No, this does not seem correct to me. He clearly states that he was by no means a religious person. He describes as do the others a realm where LOVE is what matters not religion.

 

[George-ananda]

You're assuming there's some reason to acknowledge the existence of such things.

I would refer you to the voluminous research done by NDE scientists. For example, the ability to describe events from a perspective outside of their body (not to mention the fact that there was no measureable brain activity at the time and they were noting curious minute details of people and their behaviour and equipment at the scene). If these curious aspects of the NDE did not occur quite frequently then I don't think the whole field of NDE research would of had its impetus or we'd be even talking about it now.

I'm still waiting for examples (as in specific examples, not a link to an entire site about NDEs).

So you want me to present the case for Veridical NDE's in a reply post on RF. The problem with that is the evidence is based on the quantity and quality of such stories. I'm assuming by now the educated public have heard typical NDE stories where a person descibes things they could not have reasonably been expected to know.

In the past when this has come up I have cut/pasted a few of the type of stories we've all heard by now. No, I don't expect you to research my old posts on other threads. Rather than re-do the same efforts I'd rather make the point that no stories I cut/paste will satisfy the non-believer. Their come-back is predictably things like what PROOF do I have that the events occured as described, where is my medical documentation, how do we not know this is not a case of confirmation bias, etc., etc., etc.. I don't claim to have PROOF of any of these stories. These events are just things I've read that were written by credible doctors and researchers. I evaluated as much as I can and have determined that the most reasonable conclusion is that things occur (including veridical details) that can not be satisfactorily explained as normal phenomena. I invite the readers to evaluate and come to their own opinion.

 

[George-ananda]

A couple of explanations come to mind: family members or friends discuss these topics while the person is in a coma and they pick it up subconsciously. Or the mind draws back to childhood and picks up on these topics from the subconscious while the mind is shut down and uses them.

Certainly researchers consider all these possibilities. However when the stories include trivial things that were totally unimportant observations of no significance, the possibilities you presented just don't seem likely.