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John 1:1

jtartar

Well-Known Member
In the Bible's Gospel of John, it opens thus:

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."

I would like Christians to give me their views regarding this verse, and why they believe what they believe about it. I will give you my thoughts on it.

There's a few problems here in the Greek. The first is on the word "word". The Greek word is "logos", which actually has various shades of meaning, but in pre-NT times, it meant reason, or something similar. Christians say that Jesus is the word, the logos, but do they really understand what that means? If we take the word logos to mean it's common meaning of reason, then how can an abstract idea like reason be in human form? Now, logos can mean word, or more generally, language. The Greek word lexis also means word, and they both come from the same root. But, lexis is generally the word used to denote a word itself, while logos is used to denote the reason, or idea, behind the word. My question is this: with this definition of logos, how can Christians logically equate it with living person? How does this make any sense, or how can this be reconciled philosophically?

Another problem is with the phrase, "and the logos was God". While it's ambiguous, the general syntax of the Greek suggests that the logos wasn't God, but "a god", or "divine".

To me, it seems like a better interpretation of this verse would be to assume that the "logos" was not Jesus, but the divine will or reason of God. Any thoughts?

Dyanaprajna,
You are right about this scripture being misunderstood by many people, but it is not really difficult to understand, if you have a good understanding of the rest of the scriptures. Problems always arise because people do not understand exactly who God is and who His son is.
This scripture starts out; In the beginning, well in what beginning?? If you know what the Bible says about Jesus, it is when God created Jesus, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Ps 36:9, John 6:57. The Almighty God is the creator of everything in the heavens and the earth, whose Personal name is Jehovah. Jesus is the SON of the Almighty God, and even though he is called a mighty god, isa 9:6, that is nothing when compared to The Almighty God, Ps 89:5-8, Ps 95:3, 96:4, 97:9. Jesus himself says that the Father is greater than he is, John 14:28. Jesus prays to his Father, even with tears, Matt 26:39, Heb 5:5-9.
Then it says, Was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD. This is speaking about TWO people, God and the WORD. Several places Jesus is spoken of as the WORD, John 1:14, Rev 19:13.
Jesus is more than likely called the Word, because he was the very ffrst creation by God, and it seems that God made His wishes known to His beloved son, and the son instructed the other angels in getting the work done. Jesus is called the Master Worker, at Prov 8:30,31, Ps 33:6, Ps 103:20,21, Gen 1:26-28.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hi Shermana
Theologically, Jesus is God. So again you have the appearance of something. However, Jesus is not the Father nor the Spirit. It's an issue of semantics - not syntax.
Dr. O

Scripture-a-logically Jesus is Not God because Jesus was created by God.- Rev. 3 v 14

According to Revelation [3 v 14] Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

God is un-created and from everlasting [ Psalm 90 v 2 ]
Meaning God had No beginning.
Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
So, Jesus is Not the Father, but has the Father as his Creator and God.- Rev. 3 v 12.

Right, Jesus is not God's spirit because Jesus and God are always masculine.
Whereas God's spirit is neuter. God's spirit is referred to as an 'it' not always a 'he'.
-Numbers 11 vs 16,17,25; Romans 8 vs 16,26 [KJV]; Psalm 104 v 30
Even in English a ship or boat is referred to as a 'she' even though it is a neuter.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Scripture-a-logically Jesus is Not God because Jesus was created by God.- Rev. 3 v 14

According to Revelation [3 v 14] Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Why are you attempting to exegete John 1:1 with Revelation 3? It doesn't work that way. 2 different authors, 2 different time periods, 2 different places of writing. The one has little to do with the other.
 

Shermana

Heretic
For by him were all things created,
The word "Dia" means "Through", the word "By" in this sense does not mean "originated from" but "Through". That's why many translations use "all things were created THROUGH him". The word "by" is possible in English but it doesn't mean the sense you're thinking of. It relates to Philo's Logos Theology which Paul was most definitely acquainted with, that "Wisdom", the Firstborn created personified being, was the workhorse, the vehicle of which God made all things, this is made quite clear in Proverbs 8, which is NOT describing Wisdom as a purely metaphorical concept but as an actual literal personified being, very similar to the Gnostic idea of "Sophia" being the "First emanation", of which the Gnostics most likely borrowed the idea from.
 

Shermana

Heretic
1 John 5:20 only says what you think if you go by extreme Cherry picking and selective reading. The "He" is referring to 1 John 5:18 and the "His" in 5:20. Most Trinitarians avoid this abuse of 1 John 5:20 and stay away from it, so don't try pulling that here. It clearly is referring to God, not HIS son Jesus.

18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Even in HIS son. So hopefully you can at least admit that it MAY be referring to God, not HIS son. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that it's necessarily referring to His SON, but the HIS.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/1-john-520-we-are-in-him-that-is-true.html

"Although it is certainly possible that outos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to `the true one,' God the Father, as the probable antecedent. This position, outos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.
As you can see, one of the most prominent Trinitarian scholars, Harris, agrees and says that a great deal of commentators and authors and grammarians are a bit hesitant to step on that land mine.


As for the "Image",Image does not mean "The same being as". Jesus, as the Son of the Father was the representative. Many say I'm the Image of my Father too. Same concept. John 1:1 does indeed state that he was WITH God. Something that is WITH God cannot BE God. No matter how much Nicean wordplay you use.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Okay, so you're calling the most respected Trinitarian scholars and Gramarrians like Harris ill informed about a particular verse and that they don't know Greek very well and then you simply use other verses to justify your point about that one verse that has nothing to do with it. Got it. Being the ressurection and the life does not make you God. At all. That's a total presumption, reading into the text something that's not there. All it means is that he fits the concept of the Chosen Messiah, sent by God to serve as the Holy Guilt offering, offering the Key to the Kingdom and the Right path. Reading into it anything about it being God is purely subjective but not explicitly implied.

And if you're going to use Wallace, I hope you're aware he prefers the "And the word was DIVINE" translation of John 1:1. And I can even agree with Wallace that one COULD see 5:20 as referring to the "Son" instead of the "His" part, I'll admit that no problem. But can you admit that it's possibly NOT? Without using other verses of disputable meaning that in no way indicate Jesus was anything more than a HIgh ranking spiritual being sent on a message?
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Being the ressurection and the life does not make you God. At all. That's a total presumption, reading into the text something that's not there. All it means is that he fits the concept of the Chosen Messiah, sent by God to serve as the Holy Guilt offering, offering the Key to the Kingdom and the Right path. Reading into it anything about it being God is purely subjective but not explicitly implied.
But it's God who effects resurrection and God who imparts ruach that brings life. Therefore, if Jesus asserts that he is those things, then he is God, just as God is those things.
 

Shermana

Heretic
DOn't hide your failures behind mud slinging and name dropping. You'll note that I quoted Daniel Wallace, author of the well acclaimed advanced Greek Grammar.

But even more than name dropping, you completely tucked your tail in regard to the Greek Grammatical arguments I presented. What's the matter with an honest analysis of the text? Can't you do independent analysis?

Go back and open your (I assume you have some) scholarly textbooks. Let's see what they can say about my specific pointed arguments because you just went into a tucked tail flight. If you can't say something scholarly, then don't pretend to be a scholar and hide behind someone else's acclaim.

I gave three pointed arguments.
You failed to answer any of the three.

Dr. O

Does your total dishonesty get any more clear? I showed that your other verses have nothing to do with it, and I showed that most other scholars disagreed, and then I showed that your own scholar doesn't interpret John 1:1 the way you do, you have done nothing to disprove what I said, and then you resort to personal type comments. Had you a shred of credibility, you would be able to actually defeat the rebuttals, but it appears you're content to just go "Nuh uh" and leave it at that. I would demand a refund at whatever institution you went to, what was it, "Bob's school of Theology"? Did you not even see how I said that Wallace is technically right in one sense (though not necessarily right)? Do you not even understand that Wallace does not support what you're saying? He only says that its POSSIBLE to read it that way.

As for "tucked my tail", WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? What did I tuck my tail on? What of your arguments did I not address and counter? Are you this desparate? Apparently. So please, prove that you're not totally lying by presenting these "three arguments" that you think I've failed to discuss. In fact, I asked you to present evidence of this use of the Aorist tense or at least a scholarly link that backs your case, and you REFUSED EACH TIME. You simply cited Romans 8 without providing any specific verses. I asked you to show other examples in the text, along with a link. You refused. What you've made quite clear is that "independent analysis" = making up what you say as you go. Apparently you interpret "Challening claims" to "Tucking tail".

You have three pointed arguments? Total BS. Any "arguments" you've presented have been refuted or challenged, and you have REFUSED TO DEMONSTRATE EVIDENCE each time. I demonstrated that the other verses you used do not necessarily convey what you want. You just can't admit that there are other opinions which go against yours. And those other opinions are the grand majority of Trinitarian scholars. The idea of an "honest analysis" isn't exactly "honest" in your case.

As for "independent analysis", you may not understand how this works because I don't think your University taught you this concept, but when you make bold assertions, you MAY want to have SCHOLARS WHO BACK YOUR CASE. As it stands, it's a matter of your scholar versus my scholar. Your "independent analysis", as others can see, also includes a completely fallacious interpretation of Colwell's rule that somehow involves the use of "And" (It doesn't.). Your idea of "independent analysis" = "Say whatever I want regardless if others agree". Are you saying that we are not supposed to present links to back our claim? Or is that just your excuse to get out of the fact that the Grand majority of Trinitarian scholars disagree with your case?

Now if you want to talk about "Name dropping", that's called "Backing up your claim with scholarly authority". I don't see what "failure" I presented. The grand majority of Trinitarian scholars disagrees with you, and your response is to write them all off and dismiss them, and then you use one quote by Wallace which doesn't necessarily prove conclusive to either direction.

So let me tell you something that Bob's School of Theology may not have taught you: If you're going to make an argument about the grammar of a single verse, you may want OTHER VERSES THAT USE THE SAME GRAMMAR to back your case.

Otherwise, your case about the Aorist, along with your other "points" are proven to be nothing more than your own hogwash.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
But it's God who effects resurrection and God who imparts ruach that brings life. Therefore, if Jesus asserts that he is those things, then he is God, just as God is those things.

The Maker and the Being the Maker makes are not the same being. If God makes Life, and Jesus is that life that he makes, they aren't the same. Jesus is just the representative, the Highest of the Angels, serving as the Most Sacred Vessel of God's will. Doesn't make them the same being whatsoever. Jesus is the Sent one, not the One who sends. The Pillar of Life, not the Constructor. The workhorse of Creation, not the Foreman. The Angel entrusted who decides which soul enters into life and not. These concepts of High Angels who perform these functions of the Most High were already well attested in earlier Jewish midrash and Apocrypha/Pseudipigraphic literature.
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
There is no argument needed at all about John 1:1--The greeks didnt use a in their written language--some bibles say it doesnt belong (And the word was God)--some bibles say it does belong (a god)-- Gods word must remain in harmony with itself always---- Jesus himself clears the matter up for all--- John 17:1-6--- There is no doubt whatsoever Jesus is saying the one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD) Verse 6 = Jehovah) Paul teaches the same 1 cor 8:6---
The so called scholars refuse to believe Jesus, do not be like them--they are not scholars they are pretenders.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I directly responded to Post 52 you liar. I showed that it doesn't necessarily equate Jesus to God.

Now thank you for admitting that you think it's a "New low" by asking you to actually present evidence for your claims.

As for your arguments you claim that I have not answered, I fail to see a single thing you've presented that I have not answered, so if you're going to just lie and fib like this out of pure desparation, feel free to sink your already sunk credibility even further.

Don't forget. I answered post #52 quite clearly.
 

Shermana

Heretic
There is no argument needed at all about John 1:1--The greeks didnt use a in their written language--some bibles say it doesnt belong (And the word was God)--some bibles say it does belong (a god)-- Gods word must remain in harmony with itself always---- Jesus himself clears the matter up for all--- John 17:1-6--- There is no doubt whatsoever Jesus is saying the one who sent him( Father) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD) Verse 6 = Jehovah) Paul teaches the same 1 cor 8:6---
The so called scholars refuse to believe Jesus, do not be like them--they are not scholars they are pretenders.

Okay, so cross out all the "a"s in your Bible.

Do you understand what the indefinite/anarthrous means?

Which scholars are you writing off as pretenders, the Trinitarian ones or the independent ones who deny the Trinity?

Unless I'm mistaken of course and you're agreeing that John 1:1 does not say that Jesus is God, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Maker and the Being the Maker makes are not the same being. If God makes Life, and Jesus is that life that he makes, they aren't the same.
the Father didn't create Jesus. The Father begat Jesus. In fact, since God is life, and since Jesus is quoted as saying he is life, then Jesus is God.
 

Shermana

Heretic
the Father didn't create Jesus. The Father begat Jesus. In fact, since God is life, and since Jesus is quoted as saying he is life, then Jesus is God.

By all means show the verse that says "God is life". As opposed to "God creates life".

And yes, the Father did create Jesus. "Wisdom" is the Firstborn of creation. Please explain how "begat" in this sense would be different than "Created" in the first place.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Okay, so cross out all the "a"s in your Bible.

Do you understand what the indefinite/anarthrous means?

Which scholars are you writing off as pretenders, the Trinitarian ones or the independent ones who deny the Trinity?

Unless I'm mistaken of course and you're agreeing that John 1:1 does not say that Jesus is God, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.


These are the facts of history--- Noah,Moses,Abraham,Job,Isaiah,Daniel, were all servants of the true allmighty God, them and every israelite who ever existed and served the true allmighty God served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah). Jesus was also taught this single being God in the synagogues--he never refuted this.And he surely would have if it werent truth about his Father. Proving Jesus teaching that his Father is the only true God is 100% truth. This world needs to listen to Jesus. I believe the trinity scholars are the pretenders.
The trinity god teaching, is satan misleading 2 billion humans into breaking Gods #1 commandment on a daily basis.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
By all means show the verse that says "God is life". As opposed to "God creates life".

And yes, the Father did create Jesus. "Wisdom" is the Firstborn of creation. Please explain how "begat" in this sense would be different than "Created" in the first place.

God breathed God's breath into humanity's nostrils. In other words, God gave part of God's Self to us -- life.

"Create" indicates manipulating things outside oneself. "Begat" indicates that part of oneself is used to birth something. God begat Jesus. God did not "create" Jesus.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I believe the trinity scholars are the pretenders.
The trinity god teaching, is satan misleading 2 billion humans into breaking Gods #1 commandment on a daily basis.
I believe giants wear pink, frilly underpants. That belief does not necessarily have to be true. What you "believe" about the Trinity is your business, but to pass such judgment on others is contraindicated by Jesus, whom you insist we must listen to.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Why are you attempting to exegete John 1:1 with Revelation 3? It doesn't work that way. 2 different authors, 2 different time periods, 2 different places of writing. The one has little to do with the other.

Since the apostle John is the writer of Revelation and the apostle John is the writer of the gospel according to John, then that means one author/writer.

Yes, two [2] different time periods. John's gospel account was written while Jesus was alive on earth. John's Revelation account was written decades later while the resurrected Jesus was alive in heaven.

According to Revelation [2 v 18] doesn't the resurrected heavenly Jesus still think he is the Son of God ?_______
Doesn't Jesus still think he has a God over him at Revelation 3 v 12 ?

If Revelation is discounted, then shouldn't 1st,2nd, and 3rd John also be discounted along with the gospel account written by John ?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Groan. You missed it. Jesus, as the author and creator of everything, is the beginning of Creation. You forced your errant understanding religion upon the verse. This is called eis-egeis. You force someting into the verse that it doesn't say.
Had you only known about Col 1:16-17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "
Dr. O

Revelation [3 v 14; 1 v 5] Jesus [faithful witness] is the beginning of the creation by God. Who created God ?

Before verses 16,17 of Colossians 1, Jesus is the image [verse 15] . An image is a refection, an imprint. ['chip off the old block' expression in connection to father and son]
Jesus is firstborn of every creature or all creation.
God was never born was he ?
Isn't God from everlasting according to Psalm 90 v 2 ?
Was God 'before' the beginning ?____
Jesus was in the beginning, but Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was.
Only God [Creator singular] was before the beginning.
What does Hebrews [ 1 v 2 B ] say about God ?___________
....and at Ephesians 3 v 9 ________

What does Hebrews [ 1 v 3 ] say about Jesus being 'what' of God's glory ?
What kind of image is Jesus according to verse 3 ?_________
Does Jesus sit at his own right hand or whose hand ?_______
According to Revelation [ 3 v 21 ] how many thrones are mentioned ?_______
Who sits on whose throne?_________
 
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