Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[hossein]

there is no doubt that there are so many jews whom they lived there and have their property.
i think occupying never can be a reason for being owner of the land.

Palestinian refugees comprise of the largest and longest standing case of refugees and displaced persons in modern history. 2012 marked the 64th anniversary of the Nakba, the beginning of their ongoing cycle of exile and dispossession.

64 years on Palestinians all over the world are facing many desperate challenges. In Israel, Gaza, Jerusalem, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jerusalem, Libya, Brazil and across many other parts of the world, Palestinians are subjected to gross violations of their basic human rights.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you have nothing better to do, you could always take up a hobby, volunteer for something, or just go for a walk. I am here for a serious discussion, ...

Great. Let's test that proposition: Pick up A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time and we'll discuss it chapter by chapter. PM me when you're ready.

 

[Super Universe]

As far as I remember Israel was formed after the second world war mainly because a lot of european nations felt kind of bad about all the jews who had been massacred during WWII.
They were happy to export the problem by 'giving up' some land in a far off place called Palestine.

I don't think you can claim that it was right to do so at the time, but it is over 50 years ago, and many people, both israeli and palestinians have grown up on that land since then, and I would say that by now you cannot claim that the israeli do not have a right to be there.

Why?
Hævd.
I don't know how to translate that word. Hævd is danish word which means something like 'right to claim'
The meaning is that if you use a piece of land which does not legally beling to you for an extended period of time (many years) and no one comes along and kicks you out you have won the right to claim that piece of land.

I think the israeli can claim exactly that.

The problem is so can the palestinians, which was what I was trying to indicate with my first post.
No one has kicked them out, so they have a claim to the land too.

Israel was not formed by European countries.

European countries did not export Jews to Israel, the Jews went on there on their own.

 

[Caladan]

So what specifically were these pragmatic reasons?

Jewish communities in Europe who were targeted on religious basis before, where now persecuted on the basis of a nationality as Europe became more secular. To illustrate what I'm getting at, the catalyst that set Theodor Herzl the father of modern Zionism on his quest to establish a national Jewish home was the Dreyfus affair in France which he covered as a journalist. Dreyfus was a Jewish artillery officer in the French military who was falsely accused of treason as the French newspapers demonized him based on his Jewish heritage and basically publicly crucified him. Eventually the accusations against him were found to be baseless and he went on to serve for France during WWI retiring as a Lieutenant-Colonel.
Herzl who was a European journalist experienced the sad state of affairs of Jewish society in Europe which eventually reached a climax decades later as millions of Jews were exterminated.
Because of this situation a movement which was active to create a national home for the Jews was created.

Also, you mentioned that the land was legally bought somehow? I have not heard this before, can you tell me more about this?

I am 7th generation of my family to live in an area which was bought by them as swamp land to be dried.

Well, it should be noted that the vast majority of the people that died was due to disease. Sure, there was displacement and wars and slaughter on both sides, but a lot of it came down to disease that the Europeans brought. But this is off point, I don't even see why this came up as we are talking about Israel, not America. Offly off topic but I'll shut up now on it.

Sorry, but the above paragraph is so ironic I will let it speak for itself.

 

[fallingblood]

Well, it should be noted that the vast majority of the people that died was due to disease. Sure, there was displacement and wars and slaughter on both sides, but a lot of it came down to disease that the Europeans brought. But this is off point, I don't even see why this came up as we are talking about Israel, not America. Offly off topic but I'll shut up now on it.

Actually, much of it came down to Americans making treaties with the natives, and then breaking those treaties time and time again. And then we threw them into reservations, in which disease was easy to run rampant. And then we continued to screw them over by giving them a poor education and make them feel as if they were less than humans. And today, we continue to do that as well.

We were guilty of horrible actions as the natives were not thought to be as human.

 

[lunakilo]

Israel was not formed by European countries.

European countries did not export Jews to Israel, the Jews went on there on their own.

Indirectly they did via the UN.

And the export I was talking about was the export of their guilty conscience.

 

[jazzymom]

Israel was not formed by European countries.

European countries did not export Jews to Israel, the Jews went on there on their own.

Jews have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. European Jewry are just but one group of Jews.

 

[Caladan]

Jews have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. European Jewry are just but one group of Jews.

True. Perhaps today most Jews around the world are of European Jewish descent, but in Israel half of the Jewish population is of Jews who lived in the Middle East since the dawn of history. Many Middle Eastern Jews left the countries they lived in for centuries and where in many cases they were harshly discriminated against, their property was confiscated by Arab governments and they were absorbed by a young Israeli state. I think it is amazing that after more than 60 years, many still discuss Palestinian refugees who's refugee status has been perpetuated by Arab governments and by themselves, while Middle Eastern Jews with all the difficulties it involved have been absorbed in Israel, and are now the backbone of the country.
Many Israeli Jews like myself are now of mixed European-Middle Eastern descent.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am 7th generation of my family to live in an area which was bought by them as swamp land to be dried.

I understand that some land was purchased by non-Palestinians.
How many Palestinians lost their land because of evictions, confiscations, death, etc?
How big a proportion of of the Israeli populace would they be (including emigrants with claims)?

 

[Super Universe]

Jews have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. European Jewry are just but one group of Jews.

I know Jews have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years, that's what I said in my original post. I did not say that European Jews were the only Jews in the world.

 

[Super Universe]

Indirectly they did via the UN.

And the export I was talking about was the export of their guilty conscience.

The UN has no real power in the world and never has had any.

The UN mandate recommended a Jewish State and an Arab State. The mandate alone did not create Israel, the Jews declaring themselves a nation did.

What would have happened if the arabs had not invaded Israel and tried to take it all for themselves is unknown.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I understand that some land was purchased by non-Palestinians.

I do not believe that you do.

 

[England my lionheart]

Indirectly they did via the UN.

And the export I was talking about was the export of their guilty conscience.

Dr. Chaim Weizmann, who was to become Israel's first President in 1948, is quoted in the Manchester Guardian as saying: "The world seemed to be divided into two parts – those places where the Jews could not live and those where they could not enter."

The countries represented at the Evian conference in 1938 were:

Australia, the Argentine Republic, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, United Kingdom, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Ireland, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Sweden, Switzerland, the United States, Uruguay, and Venezuela. These countries were all regarded as potential places of refuge. The Union of South Africa, which sent an observer, and Polish and Rumanian representatives attended in an unofficial capacity, along with Germany were not considered as countries of possible immigration.

Évian Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looks like the whole world shared in the guilty concience.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not believe that you do.

I hope you're joking, you old fogie. Even we anti-semitic sexist racist capitalistic anarchistic white guys can understand things....with difficulty.
This relates to one reason I'm here....Caladan had earlier told me of his family's background, including legitimately purchasing land before things
got so testy. He & I might have a few differences of opinion, but his perspective is a window into the middle east which I can't get from the news.
Anyway, it raises a question about quantifying how much land was "stolen" & how much properly acquired. I don't know, & I'm curious.

 

[lunakilo]

The UN has no real power in the world and never has had any.

The UN mandate recommended a Jewish State and an Arab State. The mandate alone did not create Israel, the Jews declaring themselves a nation did.

No, the mandate alone did not create Israel, but without the mandate and thereby the acceptence of the people represented in the UN forming Israel would have been much harder.

What would have happened if the arabs had not invaded Israel and tried to take it all for themselves is unknown.

 

[Infinitum]

I hear a lot about the reasons, but what are your thoughts on how to solve the crisis? What is it that keeps Palestinians and Israelis against each other like they do for such a long time? Is it religion, habitat, bad political leaders, a mix of these or something entirely else?

As a comparison, my country has been independent for a bit over 90 years now, which is roughly one more generation than in Israel. There are four different ethnicities living in the state; one people in the north, one on the coast, one on the east border and then the majority of the population all over. Although not all in the different cultures are overly fond with each other the situation normalized very fast after the civil war early in the independence years.

In the same way one of the neighbouring countries that gained their independence just a few decades ago have none of this tension. If the difference is in how long the population has lived in the area, shouldn't the time Jews have lived in Israel slowly start to make a difference already? Where I live the focus of the power struggle moved eventually to politics, where it's stayed ever since.

 

[jasonwill2]

Great. Let's test that proposition: Pick up A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time and we'll discuss it chapter by chapter. PM me when you're ready.

Sure thing, I'll tell you when I pick up the book.

Jewish communities in Europe who were targeted on religious basis before, where now persecuted on the basis of a nationality as Europe became more secular. To illustrate what I'm getting at, the catalyst that set Theodor Herzl the father of modern Zionism on his quest to establish a national Jewish home was the Dreyfus affair in France which he covered as a journalist. Dreyfus was a Jewish artillery officer in the French military who was falsely accused of treason as the French newspapers demonized him based on his Jewish heritage and basically publicly crucified him. Eventually the accusations against him were found to be baseless and he went on to serve for France during WWI retiring as a Lieutenant-Colonel.
Herzl who was a European journalist experienced the sad state of affairs of Jewish society in Europe which eventually reached a climax decades later as millions of Jews were exterminated.
Because of this situation a movement which was active to create a national home for the Jews was created.

If the modern state of Israel was founded as a safe-haven for Jews, it has failed miserably considering how so many hate Israel now all around them.

 

[Caladan]

I understand that some land was purchased by non-Palestinians.

They were all Palestinians during that time. Whether you were Jewish or Arab, your identification documents said you were 'Palestinian'. A person who lives under the British mandate of Palestine.

How many Palestinians lost their land because of evictions, confiscations, death, etc?

Or lost their land because of the promises of Arab states to cleanse the land of Jews. The question needs to address the entire scope of the conflict. Just as there are Arab villages who have ceased to exist during the Arab-Israeli conflict of the late 40's, the Arabs had a goal to cleanse the land of Jews. But like so many other times during the course of the 20th century the Arab governments made promises and statements to their public that did not match reality. In reality they could never achieve the upper hand against Israel, and all their campaigns against Israel ended up in humiliation and long term bitterness.

How big a proportion of of the Israeli populace would they be (including emigrants with claims)?

One of the most ironic dramas of the Israeli-Palestinian issue, is the partition of the land by the UN into an Arab state and a Jewish state. Had the Arabs accepted this plan, the Jewish state would in fact be created with an Arab majority and would probably cease to exist after a few decades. Again it would mean that an Arab state would be created and a 'Jewish state' but with Arab majority. And they rejected it.
It seems that the Arab rejection and the conflict actually backfired at the Palestinians and to such an extent that they are still paying for it today.

 

[Caladan]

If the modern state of Israel was founded as a safe-haven for Jews, it has failed miserably considering how so many hate Israel now all around them.

I beg to differ.
Israel until the recent Arab spring has been the only multi party democracy in the region. The only nation where it has been even conceivable to legalize same sex marriage, or even to allow equal voting rights for women.
If you follow the news, the hate around Israel has been consuming the nations around Israel with civil wars and general civil unrest, with a body count of tens of thousands. While all this time Israeli economy and society has shown resilience.
The Arab states have realized some decades ago that the military option against Israel is in fact not an option. Israel has achieved an amazing capacity to absorb Jewish refugees and immigration and to create a society which functions like no other in the Middle East.

 

[Alceste]

Well, it should be noted that the vast majority of the people that died was due to disease. Sure, there was displacement and wars and slaughter on both sides, but a lot of it came down to disease that the Europeans brought. But this is off point, I don't even see why this came up as we are talking about Israel, not America. Offly off topic but I'll shut up now on it.

Whoah, hang on now. You can not, must not, attribute the genocide of indigenous north Americans to "disease" and brush it off like it's no big deal. What our ancestors did to establish our countries was far, far more horrific than anything the Israelis are doing to Palestinians.

It is completely relevant if you really want to understand why Israel feels it had the right to exist: they feel Israel had the right to exist for the exact same reasons you feel countries like Canada, the US and Australia have a right to exist. We have roots here, and most of us just don't worry too much about the fact those roots are planted in blood and bones, suffering and slaughter.

I would argue that the Palestinians feel exactly the same about the Palestinian territories, though, so I hope Israel will one day agree to a two state solution and pull the settlements out of Palestine. Hopefully soon, because their treatment of Palestinians is not making them any friends in the increasingly independent neighboring states.