Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[Koldo]

You only understand it in terms of your idea of it; you don't understand the actual experience. Talking about what is beyond the rational mind is not what is beyond the rational mind. A finger pointing to the moon is not the moon itself.

That IS what i am saying : You only understand it in the terms of your idea of it, you don't understand the actual experience.

While I can indeed talk about the experience as an idea, the idea is neither the experience, nor is it necessary to the experience itself. The experience is the actual reality, and has 100% meaning without having to form any idea of it. When you spontaneously burn your finger on a hot stove, your immediate experience is 'OUCH!', and only 'OUCH!'. Immediately aftewards, you come to the realization of what has just occurred, and you think, 'Oh, I have burned my finger'. You don't need to formulate an idea of your burning your finger to experience the burning of your finger. The idea comes AFTERWARDS.

Without the idea, you just felt something.
To understand this experience you have to relate it to ideas of 'pain' and 'finger'. The idea is not necessary to the experience, rather it is necessary to understand the experience.

 

[godnotgod]

Why did God create our minds with this flaw?

Ha! I don't think God has anything to do with it, at least not as the cause of it. It has to do with the way we look at reality. We are in need of vision correction, so to speak.

 

[Koldo]

Ha! I don't think God has anything to do with it, at least not as the cause of it. It has to do with the way we look at reality. We are in need of vision correction, so to speak.

At which point our mind becomes flawed with this? Since birth? Since early childhood? How does this flaw appear?
Isn't it a flaw in itself to be able to look at reality in some other manner than absolute joy?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

You assume you have living prophets and apostles then?

nope, it has been proven to me.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I am not trying to prove 'my side'. I am simply trying to establish what the author's intent of the scriptural passage is. I already told you that I agree with you that the intent of his symbolism represents a peaceful state, as the context of the passage verifies. I just want to establish that you and I are in agreement as to the author's intent, and it appears that we are. In other words, I am not saying that it actually represents peace, only that the author's intent is that it does.

Agreed?

But you haven't proven that that was the authors intent, however you are clear to say that it might be the authors intent.

 

[godnotgod]

At which point our mind becomes flawed with this? Since birth? Since early childhood? How does this flaw appear?
Isn't it a flaw in itself to be able to look at reality in some other manner than absolute joy?

Yes, but the Absolute is also the Ordinary. They are One. But for some reason, we tend to separate them, and impose one over the other in a dominant manner, such as the supernatural over the natural. This is a dualistic view. I think therein lies the problem.

Perhaps 'flaw' is the wrong word; maybe 'condition' is more accurate. For example, through experience and education, you know to fear snakes because they may be poisonous. One late afternoon toward dusk, you are walking along a country road and the wind is blowing. Out of the corner of your eye, you see what you think is a snake. Immediately you recoil in horror, but in the next instant, realize it was only a rope moving in the wind.

 

[godnotgod]

But you haven't proven that that was the authors intent, however you are clear to say that it might be the authors intent.

You're not understanding me: it matters not whether I can prove it or not. What I am asking you, is whether you and I agree what the author's INTENT is. Whether it's true or not is another question. Do you understand?

Example: Joe was poisoned and died as a result. His wife is suspected. We can agree that Joe was poisoned. Of this there is no doubt, but whether it was his wife who did it is another question.

 

[godnotgod]

nope, it has been proven to me.

'Proof' means clear facts/evidence is available. What clear facts/evidence do you have available as proof?

 

[Koldo]

Yes, but the Absolute is also the Ordinary. They are One. But for some reason, we tend to separate them, and impose one over the other in a dominant manner, such as the supernatural over the natural. This is a dualistic view. I think therein lies the problem.

Perhaps 'flaw' is the wrong word; maybe 'condition' is more accurate. For example, through experience and education, you know to fear snakes because they may be poisonous. One late afternoon toward dusk, you are walking along a country road and the wind is blowing. Out of the corner of your eye, you see what you think is a snake. Immediately you recoil in horror, but in the next instant, realize it was only a rope moving in the wind.

And how do you justify humans being born into this condition?
Why don't we perceive absolute joy from the start?

 

[meddlehaze]

For those complaining about the other thread being in Comparative Religion...
Have at it.

There are many reasons God allows suffering and I don't think our 2 pounds of grey matter could ever contain all of them. I believe He has revealed some though through His record (the Bible). Without suffering, how does one appreciate the opposing experience? It is often said, "no pain, no gain", it is allowed for strength. In the first few verses of John chapter 9 I believe Jesus addresses this issue precisely. He says to His disciples in regards to the cause of blindness in a man nearby, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him."

Why is it wrong for suffering to exist?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

You're not understanding me: it matters not whether I can prove it or not. What I am asking you, is whether you and I agree what the author's INTENT is. Whether it's true or not is another question. Do you understand?

Example: Joe was poisoned and died as a result. His wife is suspected. We can agree that Joe was poisoned. Of this there is no doubt, but whether it was his wife who did it is another question.

Okay then yes I agree

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

'Proof' means clear facts/evidence is available. What clear facts/evidence do you have available as proof?

How much more clear facts and evidence do I need than God literally telling me it is true?

 

[Koldo]

Why is it wrong for suffering to exist?

The answer is rather simple. Because unwanted suffering is on the opposite side of the spectrum where happiness lies.

 

[meddlehaze]

The answer is rather simple. Because unwanted suffering is on the opposite side of the spectrum where happiness lies.

So anything that brings someone happiness is right?

 

[Koldo]

So anything that brings someone happiness is right?

Not. Only if you could establish this thing is a necessary truth to achieve happiness in any possible world. And then again it would only be right if it didn't destroy/prevent happiness from someone else nor destroy/prevent happiness from the future states of affairs.

 

[meddlehaze]

Not. Only if you could establish this thing is a necessary truth to achieve happiness in any possible world. And then again it would only be right if it didn't destroy/prevent happiness from someone else nor destroy/prevent happiness from the future states of affairs.

If this form of logic prevents a sadistic person from being happy from sadism, you'd be wrong?

 

[fishy]

How much more clear facts and evidence do I need than God literally telling me it is true?

The Final Solution. The End Of Discussion. The I Win Tool. The You Can't Win Tool.

GODDIDIT!

​

 

[9Westy9]

How much more clear facts and evidence do I need than God literally telling me it is true?

For yourself, none. For anyone else, a lot.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How much more clear facts and evidence do I need than God literally telling me it is true?

How much more clear facts and evidence do I need of Elvis being abducted by aliens than Elvis literally talking to me after I was taken on board his flying saucer?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So anything that brings someone happiness is right?

So it's all right that people suffer simply because God wills it?