Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[Koldo]

When one is in the state of either Relative Joy or Relative Suffering, one is also ALWAYS in the state of Absolute Joy, but one does not realize it. Imagine that you are a fish born into the sea (which, of course, all fish are). You go about your business of being a fish without realizing the presence of the sea around you. You focus on finding food, sex, etc, but the sea is just passively 'there' as a background to your existence, in spite of the fact that it is crucial to your existence. It is what ultimately supports you. Likewise, we, as humans, primarily pay attention to the foreground of our everyday existence, hardly ever paying any heed to the passive background that is crucial to our existence. It goes unnoticed because it is also the Ordinary of our everyday life. We are too busy seeking things that provide pleasure and sensual gratification, and it becomes overlooked, but it is there constantly, nonetheless. In short, that which constitutes our life, Relative Joy and Suffering, is one and the same as Absolute Joy. In the East it is stated thus: Nirvana and Samsara are One.

Why to perceive this absolute joy, one is required to go through a process of realization? Why don't humans perceive it as naturally and in the same manner as other things such as food, sex, etc.?

 

[Koldo]

You may or may not have an idea of it prior to the experience, but the description pales in comparison. The idea is not necessary to the experience. The experience can be totally spontaneous and/or there are certain things that are conducive to the experience that one can prepare. But the actual experience is never the idea of it. Having said that, one may have an inkling (ie; self-remembering) of the state of mind the experience affords; it is just that we have forgotten or have fallen asleep, and become immersed in Identification.

Experience God? How do you know you are experiencing God if to understand an experience you must connect it to an idea?

 

[godnotgod]

Why to perceive this absolute joy, one is required to go through a process of realization? Why don't humans perceive it as naturally and in the same manner as other things such as food, sex, etc.?

Primarily due to social indoctrination, which puts us into the state of Waking Sleep (ie; 'Identification') early on. We grow up firmly believing that Joe X or Mary X, who had such and such parents, who was raised in such and such town, who went to such and such school, who became a doctor, teacher, lawyer, etc, is who we really are. Our true nature, which is at one with Absolute Joy, is suppressed, unable to be expressed or realized. There is too much noise going on from the everyday world to even realize, for most of us, that it even exists. Most of us are too busy living the life of the socially indoctrinated creature we refer to as "I", pursuing goals that are temporal, and thinking that we will experience a reward in some afterlife we call Heaven. We lose touch with the real Present Moment, which we conceptualize, via Time, as fleeting and illusory, unable to realize the fullness of the Eternal in the Present Moment. Concepts, dogmas, beliefs, etc all get in the way of our experiencing Absolute Joy, while we mistake the Outcomes of mere cause and effect for reality.

Like someone said: we have one eye on the goal and one eye on the path, instead of both eyes on the path.

 

[godnotgod]

Experience God? How do you know you are experiencing God if to understand an experience you must connect it to an idea?

Quite the contrary: you must abandon all ideas. Ideas are the mind's way of trying to 'make sense' of a world it does not really understand. In doing so, the mind attempts to encapsulate reality, which cannot be so encapsulated, since reality is an experience, and not a thing. Most of us maintain mental, even anthropomorphic concepts of 'God', which are frozen finite concepts about reality.

 

[Koldo]

Primarily due to social indoctrination, which puts us into the state of Waking Sleep (ie; 'Identification') early on. We grow up firmly believing that Joe X or Mary X, who had such and such parents, who was raised in such and such town, who went to such and such school, who became a doctor, teacher, lawyer, etc, is who we really are. Our true nature, which is at one with Absolute Joy, is suppressed, unable to be expressed or realized. There is too much noise going on from the everyday world to even realize, for most of us, that it even exists. Most of us are too busy living the life of the socially indoctrinated creature we refer to as "I", pursuing goals that are temporal, and thinking that we will experience a reward in some afterlife we call Heaven. We lose touch with the real Present Moment, which we conceptualize, via Time, as fleeting and illusory, unable to realize the fullness of the Eternal in the Present Moment. Concepts, dogmas, beliefs, etc all get in the way of our experiencing Absolute Joy, while we mistake the Outcomes of mere cause and effect for reality.

Like someone said: we have one eye on the goal and one eye on the path, instead of both eyes on the path.

When did it all start? And how do you explain the moments that came before it?

 

[Koldo]

Quite the contrary: you must abandon all ideas. Ideas are the mind's way of trying to 'make sense' of a world it does not really understand. In doing so, the mind attempts to encapsulate reality, which cannot be so encapsulated, since reality is an experience, and not a thing. Most of us maintain mental, even anthropomorphic concepts of 'God', which are frozen finite concepts about reality.

Aren't you trying to make sense of God when you say that God is beyond?

 

[godnotgod]

Aren't you trying to make sense of God when you say that God is beyond?

To say that God is beyond is to say that God does NOT make sense. If it made [rational] 'sense', it would not be 'beyond'. It is beyond simply because it cannot be contained by the rational mind and it's notions of what constitutes 'sense'.

You seem to want to tenaciously cling to an idea of the experience, rather than to go see what the experience is about.

 

[godnotgod]

When did it all start? And how do you explain the moments that came before it?

When did what all start?

 

[Koldo]

To say that God is beyond is to say that God does NOT make sense. If it made [rational] 'sense', it would not be 'beyond'. It is beyond simply because it cannot be contained by the rational mind and it's notions of what constitutes 'sense'.

But what you are saying does make rational 'sense'.
If it didn't, i wouldn't be able to understand you.

You seem to want to tenaciously cling to an idea of the experience, rather than to go see what the experience is about.

The problem here is that you are rationalizing your experience. At that moment, you have to relate it to an idea. And this idea , albeit separated from the experience itself, is what give meaning to your experience. You/we are unable to interpret an experience without an idea. Your experience becomes meaningless if you don't attribute an idea to it.

 

[Koldo]

When did what all start?

That which keeps us from perceiving the absolute joy just like food,sex,etc. such as the social indoctrination and all else that may pertain to this matter.

 

[godnotgod]

But what you are saying does make rational 'sense'.
If it didn't, i wouldn't be able to understand you.

You only understand it in terms of your idea of it; you don't understand the actual experience. Talking about what is beyond the rational mind is not what is beyond the rational mind. A finger pointing to the moon is not the moon itself.

The problem here is that you are rationalizing your experience. At that moment, you have to relate it to an idea. And this idea , albeit separated from the experience itself, is what give meaning to your experience. You/we are unable to interpret an experience without an idea. Your experience becomes meaningless if you don't attribute an idea to it.

While I can indeed talk about the experience as an idea, the idea is neither the experience, nor is it necessary to the experience itself. The experience is the actual reality, and has 100% meaning without having to form any idea of it. When you spontaneously burn your finger on a hot stove, your immediate experience is 'OUCH!', and only 'OUCH!'. Immediately aftewards, you come to the realization of what has just occurred, and you think, 'Oh, I have burned my finger'. You don't need to formulate an idea of your burning your finger to experience the burning of your finger. The idea comes AFTERWARDS.

In terms of religious experience, doctrine and religious dogma always come AFTER the spiritual experience. Religion is ABOUT the spiritual experience, but is not the experience itself.

Jesus made a point of this, wherein he told his audience that they were mistaken to think they would gain eternal life by searching the scriptures. He was telling them that they had the cart ahead of the horse. Many people think they are going to get the spiritiual experience by studying doctrine. They are sadly mistaken.

In the world of Zen, for example, it is taught that the experience always comes first, but intellectual understanding and expression is OK too, but intellectual understanding alone is an empty shell. That is why it spends so much time paying attention to quieting the chatter of the rational thinking mind. Once absolute silence is achieved, it opens the door for the actual experience, whose pathway is an intuitive one, not an intellectual one.

 

[godnotgod]

That which keeps us from perceiving the absolute joy just like food,sex,etc. such as the social indoctrination and all else that may pertain to this matter.

That's a good question. I think it is a flaw in the mind. We have a pleasant experience, and naturally want to have it repeated. In having it repeated, we formulate a frozen idea of it as if it were a 'thing'. We pursue the concept of the experience but find it does not satisfy. In addition, the mind also forms a concept of an individual ego that is separate from and acts upon the world, where no such separation actually exists. This is the state of Identification, the Third Level of Consciousness, where one has become lost because one has taken the character one is acting out as real. The conscious connection to the Absolute has been lost, even though one is forever immersed in the Absolute. Because we find this state eventually leads to general unhappiness and suffering, we begin to seek an alternative. This is the road back to Oneness.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I believe that a God would be able to achieve any fair, worthy, and just goal without sending Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans. In addition, I believe that a God would be able to achieve any fair, worthy, and just goal without forcing animals to kill each other.

In the beginning that was so, and then came the fall of Adam and Eve. It was all a result from the fall.

 

[godnotgod]

In the beginning that was so, and then came the fall of Adam and Eve. It was all a result from the fall.

Uh....that would'nt be an ASSUMPTION, now....uh....would it? heh heh heh...:biglaugh:

 

[Pegg]

Uh....that would'nt be an ASSUMPTION, now....uh....would it? heh heh heh...:biglaugh:

Yaddo never assumes anything

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yaddo never assumes anything

Yes I do!

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Uh....that would'nt be an ASSUMPTION, now....uh....would it? heh heh heh...:biglaugh:

Nope, thanks to living prophets and apostles.

 

[fishy]

Nope, thanks to living prophets and apostles.

You assume you have living prophets and apostles then?

 

[godnotgod]

I am stating that I have proven it for myself. (my end/ side)
on your end/ side, how have you proven that it represents peace, since you don't believe my sources. Can you prove it without implying things, for implying things is assuming things, which isn't evidence at all.

I am not trying to prove 'my side'. I am simply trying to establish what the author's intent of the scriptural passage is. I already told you that I agree with you that the intent of his symbolism represents a peaceful state, as the context of the passage verifies. I just want to establish that you and I are in agreement as to the author's intent, and it appears that we are. In other words, I am not saying that it actually represents peace, only that the author's intent is that it does.

Agreed?

 

[Koldo]

That's a good question. I think it is a flaw in the mind. We have a pleasant experience, and naturally want to have it repeated. In having it repeated, we formulate a frozen idea of it as if it were a 'thing'. We pursue the concept of the experience but find it does not satisfy. In addition, the mind also forms a concept of an individual ego that is separate from and acts upon the world, where no such separation actually exists. This is the state of Identification, the Third Level of Consciousness, where one has become lost because one has taken the character one is acting out as real. The conscious connection to the Absolute has been lost, even though one is forever immersed in the Absolute. Because we find this state eventually leads to general unhappiness and suffering, we begin to seek an alternative. This is the road back to Oneness.

Why did God create our minds with this flaw?