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Is Jesus Christ true God AND true man?

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Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin said:
Wow, a simple 'No. I don't care to discuss it'...would have sufficed. Thanks anyway....
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Seriously?
Discuss what?
Did you even give anything useful?


Dirty Penguin said:
If Yeshua is lord then who is Yeshua's lord (Matthew 11:25)..?
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Do you see that this verse says anything about "Yeshua's lord ":
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
 
M

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
mohammed_beiruti said:
Ok what about John 20:17
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First, it doesn't say "Jesus' Lord" as you claimed.
Second,
why didn't he say "our Father and our God"?
Third, read this
God was his Father, not by creation, as he is to angels, and the souls of men, and therefore is called the Father of spirits; nor by adoption, as he is to the saints; nor with respect to the incarnation of Christ, for, as man, he had no father; or with regard to his office as Mediator, for as such he was a servant, and not a Son; but he was his Father by nature, or with regard to his divine person, being begotten of him, and so his own proper Son, and he his own proper Father; which hold forth the natural and eternal sonship of Christ, his equality with him, and distinction from him: and God was the Father of his disciples by adopting grace, in virtue of the covenant of grace made with Christ, and through their spiritual relation to him, as the natural and eternal Son of God: God the Father is the God of Christ as man, who prepared, formed, anointed, supported, and glorified his human nature; and in which nature, he prayed to him as his God, believed in him, loved and obeyed him as such; wherefore the Jew very wrongly infers from hence, that he is not God, because the God of Israel was his God; since this is spoken of him as he is man: and he was the God of his disciples, in and by the covenant of grace made with Christ, as their head and representative; so that their interest in God, as their covenant God and Father, was founded upon his being the God and Father of Christ, and their relation to, and concern with him; and which therefore must be firm and lasting, and will hold as long as God is the God and Father of Christ: this was good news to be brought to his disciples; which, as it carried the strongest marks of affection, and expressions of nearness of relation; and implied, that he was now risen from the dead; so it signified, that he should ascend to God, who stood in the same relation to them, as to him; when he should use all his interest and influence on their behalf, whilst they were on earth; and when the proper time was come for a remove, that they might be with him, and with his God and Father and theirs, where they would be to all eternity.
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P

peacecrusader888

Active Member
mohammed_beiruti said:
Ok what about John 20:17



The Holy Bible

Who is Jesus' God?
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20111122.0020

@mohammed_beiruti

Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is God? Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Where is the Father? He is in Heaven. So, to go to the Father in Heaven, we have to believe in Jesus Christ and follow His commandments.

The explicit answer of who God is is in the book of Revelation.

What was speaking in Revelation?
Who was asked to write what he was seeing and hearing?
Why is the name of Jesus in Revelation?

The description of God is in Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18, 3:1, 7, 13.
Who is the “Son of God” referred to in Revelation 2:18? Who is “which was dead, and is alive” in Revelation 2:8?
 
cablescavenger

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
peacecrusader888 said:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
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If he did exist, you can bet your bottom dollar that was not his name.

peacecrusader888 said:
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?
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If he did exist, you can bet your bottom dollar he was not God, or the son of God.

It surprises me so many believe that now, when so many did not believe it back then. He is not God, or the son of God according to most of his disciples, the Sanhedrin of the time, Jesus, his brother, or his female companion Mary. People who knew him well (if he existed).
 
cablescavenger

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
peacecrusader888 said:
20111115.0645

@Terrywoodenpic

Miraculous birth? A virgin conceiving and giving birth to a son? Why? Was this not prophesied about 700 years earlier by the prophet Isaiah? Isaiah 7:14 states “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Is there anything impossible to God?

Do you not believe in the Trinity – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Hence, there are three persons who are believed to be the persons of the Trinity. But Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” So the Father is the only true God. Is there anything impossible to God? God made Himself into three – as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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I think you are overlooking the rewrites.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
mohammed_beiruti said:
Ok what about John 20:17
The Holy Bible
Who is Jesus' God?
Click to expand...

Yes, the resurrected Jesus did say he still had a God over him at Jn. 20v17.

Decades later the resurrected and ascended to heaven Jesus also still believed he had a God over him at Revelation 3v12.

Jesus still considers himself to be the 'Son of God' according to Rev. 2v18.

KJV mentions two [2] LORD/Lord's at Psalm 110v1.

Where KJV uses all upper-case letters where the word 'LORD' appears that means originally that is where the four letters [YHWH] for God's personal name appeared.
Those four letters [YHWH] is often referred to as the Tetragrammaton.

On the other hand, the word 'Lord' [in three lower-case letters] stands for Jesus.

So, the God of Jesus would be the capitalized LORD [YHWH] of Psalm 110v1.
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, the resurrected Jesus did say he still had a God over him at Jn. 20v17.

Decades later the resurrected and ascended to heaven Jesus also still believed he had a God over him at Revelation 3v12.

Jesus still considers himself to be the 'Son of God' according to Rev. 2v18.
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Scripturally and Theologically speaking..I agree.

See (Acts 2:36)
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Yeshua, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

Pe****ta
ܫܪܝܪܐܝܬܼ ܗܟܼܝܠ ܢܕܿܥ ܟܿܠܗ ܒܿܝܬܼ ܐܝܣܪܝܠ܃ ܕܿܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ ܥܒܼܕܿܗ ܐܠܗܐ܃ ܠܗܢܐ ܝܫܘܥ ܕܿܐܢ̱ܬܿܘܢ ܙܩܦܼܬܿܘܢ܀

"God made that same Yeshua....Lord and Messiah"

Surely Elah (God) didn't make Yeshua "Lord YHWH and Messiah......?
Can YHWH be crucified and die..?
 
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M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin said:
See (Acts 2:36)
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Yeshua, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

Pe****ta
ܫܪܝܪܐܝܬܼ ܗܟܼܝܠ ܢܕܿܥ ܟܿܠܗ ܒܿܝܬܼ ܐܝܣܪܝܠ܃ ܕܿܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ ܥܒܼܕܿܗ ܐܠܗܐ܃ ܠܗܢܐ ܝܫܘܥ ܕܿܐܢ̱ܬܿܘܢ ܙܩܦܼܬܿܘܢ܀

"God made that same Yeshua....Lord and Messiah"

Surely Elah (God) didn't make Yeshua "Lord YHWH and Messiah......?
Can YHWH be crucified and die..?
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Incorrect, as usual.
You just keep embarrassing yourself.

Acts 2:36
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified.”

Younan's Interliner
ܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ : LORD and Messiah

But you look like you forgot that:

Quote:

Now, sense you've introduce 1 Cor. 12:3 as your proof text then let's see what scholars say about it.

Professor Sebastian Brock of Oxford University, the world’s foremost authority on the Aramaic language, stated that “marya” is an emphatic form of “mar” (lord) and does not mean “Lord Yah”.

"Mor (or Mar) is an honorific title used both for bishops and for saints" (Sebastian P. Brock, An Introduction to Syriac Studies p. 1)

"Mar, literally 'My Lord', a usual title of ecclesiastics and saints. This title always occurs in the commentaries when the Commentary of Ephraem is referred to" (Society for New Testament Studies, New Testament Studies, vol. 8 (1962), p. 294)
He is is entitled to his opinion. But it is useless until he or you prove it. According to Mr Paul Younan and others, this isn't correct, as will be shown next.

However, giving contradicting arguments is self-defeating and shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

First you quote someone saying this:

"Mar, literally 'My Lord'

And then in another quote, you give Mar meaning master.

Quote:
Introduction to Syriac by Wheeler Thackston (Ibex Publishers, 1999), p.55
“ marya the Lord”
Unfaithful quoting as usual
But it backfires as usual. Here's Thackston P.55 :

maryahfromthakston.jpg



Quote:
DUKHRANA BIBLICAL RESEARCH at Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament

mry
noun
lord,master
That's not ܡܪܝܐ

 Quote:
Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon
 (mārē, māryā, mārā) n.m. master

1 master Com. --(a) human Com. --(b) divine Com. (b.1) mArA), mAryA) : the Lord, God Syr. (b.2) mAry : my Lord, usually in reference to Jesus Syr...
Thanks for that:

mAryA) : the Lord, God

Quote:
John 12:20-21
And there were also among the people, some who had come up to worship at the feast. These came, and approached Philip, who was of Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him: My lord [marya], we are desirous to see Jesus.

Surely we're not to assume that Phillip is (Lord Yaweh)..?
Incorrect. (Unfaithful or just copying what you don't understand?)

(John 12:21 [Pe****ta])ܗܠܝܢ ܐܬܘ ܩܪܒܘ ܠܘܬ ܦܝܠܝܦܘܤ ܗܘ ܕܡܢ ܒܝܬ ܨܝܕܐ ܕܓܠܝܠܐ ܘܫܐܠܘܗܝ ܘܐܡܪܝܢ ܠܗ ܡܪܝ ܨܒܝܢ ܚܢܢ ܢܚܙܐ ܠܝܫܘܥ ܀
(John 12:21 [Etheridge]) These came and drew near to Philipos, who was of Beth-tsaida of Galila; and they requested of him, and said to him, Mari, we desire to see Jeshu.

Quote:
Psalms 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The same word and lexicographical definition is there as well. Surely we're not talking about two gods. The word "lord" has multiple application and is not exclusive to "God".
Again incorrect.
The Lord said unto my Lord
ܐܡܪ ܡܪܝܐ ܠܡܪܝ

By the way, thanks for the big help.

Here is Luke 2:11 from Younan's interlinear:
lukefrompy.jpg


As can be seen:
ܡܪܝܐ = the LORD (all capitals meaning YHVH)
Also from Aramic bible in Plain English:
“For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.”
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