The Qur'an Teaches Jesus Died (possibly on the Cross)

[Kodanshi]

As a preface to my point, let me submit that nowhere does the Qur’ān state that Jews and Christians corrupted their holy books. It simply alleges that they misinterpreted the teachings found therein.

With that in mind, let me say that this mirrors exactly what muslims do nowadays themselves. Verses in the Qur’ān — which speak of Jesus’ supposed elevation to Heaven without dying — say something else completely, but muslims have put a different spin on them to fit their own particular brand of theology.

Take this word from 5:117 (word 20):

توفيتني

Usually mistranslated as ‘when you took/raised me up’ (the linked site also follows the bogus idea that Jesus did not die), the ‘Arabic here actually features Jesus saying to allāh: “When you caused me to die”.

If you look in other places in the Qur’ān, the root word w–f–y manifests in various forms throughout. In all the other cases NOT referring to Jesus, where the derivation takes the form of the verb tawaffā, it always mean ‘to cause to die’. They are all correctly translated on the same site when it comes to personages other than Jesus.

E.g.

3:193,
7:126,
12:101,
16:70,
40:77,
47:27,

Etc.

 

[fallingblood]

What linked site are you talking about? Because I simply don't see it. The link for the first verse you provided, definitely doesn't do what you are saying. In fact, that link posts a verse from the Quran that contradicts what you are saying. Really, I don't see you having an argument at all.

 

[Kodanshi]

What linked site are you talking about? Because I simply don't see it. The link for the first verse you provided, definitely doesn't do what you are saying. In fact, that link posts a verse from the Quran that contradicts what you are saying. Really, I don't see you having an argument at all.

That’s exactly what I said in my post. The link to 5:117 presents the same verb as in the other verses, but (mis)translates it as ‘took me up’ when it should be ‘caused me to die’.

The other verses show the same verb being correctly translated. In other words, something that means ‘cause to die’ is invariably mistranslated when it comes to the question of Jesus.

 

[fallingblood]

That’s exactly what I said in my post. The link to 5:117 presents the same verb as in the other verses, but (mis)translates it as ‘took me up’ when it should be ‘caused me to die’.

The other verses show the same verb being correctly translated. In other words, something that means ‘cause to die’ is invariably mistranslated when it comes to the question of Jesus.

There's your problem. You're relying on a translation, not the original language. When translating a text, context also makes a difference. Words before and after a particular word can change what a particular word means.

Again, you really have no argument here.

 

[croak]

Google Translate

Sure, Google Translate could be wrong, but what exactly is your background in Arabic?

 

[javajo]

The Qur’ān was written like five centuries after the crucifixion. I would go, personally, with the accounts closer to the actual event by people like John and Peter who were actually there and recorded it for us and preached it with confirming signs and miracles following. The Qur’ān also says Abraham was asked to sacrifice Ishmael instead of Isaac. Our oldest manuscript of that was from @ 1100 A.D. so we could not debate that until we found a manuscript older than the Qur’ān in the Dead Sea Scrolls which were written about the time of Christ and they say it was Isaac. Well, there is a lot to say about all that, but I'm not gonna go there, I gotta go now anyway. I vote in favor of the Bible's account. Jesus died according to scripture was buried and rose again, according to scripture. That's what I believe.

 

[fallingblood]

The Qur’ān was written like five centuries after the crucifixion. I would go, personally, with the accounts closer to the actual event by people like John and Peter who were actually there and recorded it for us and preached it with confirming signs and miracles following. The Qur’ān also says Abraham was asked to sacrifice Ishmael instead of Isaac. Our oldest manuscript of that was from @ 1100 A.D. so we could not debate that until we found a manuscript older than the Qur’ān in the Dead Sea Scrolls which were written about the time of Christ and they say it was Isaac. Well, there is a lot to say about all that, but I'm not gonna go there, I gotta go now anyway. I vote in favor of the Bible's account. Jesus died according to scripture was buried and rose again, according to scripture. That's what I believe.

John and Peter never wrote anything. Peter and John were illiterate, as is recorded in Acts.

 

[javajo]

John and Peter never wrote anything. Peter and John were illiterate, as is recorded in Acts.

John wrote the book of Revelation, John and 1, 2, and 3 John, Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter. Perhaps they had a secretary . That they were illiterate and Peter was a humble, uneducated fisherman makes it all the more credible to me since they could not have made up such a character as Christ and certainly not his teachings, and points to their books as being truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. But that's just me.

 

[javajo]

Um. It says in the first chapter of Revelation that Jesus told John to, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter." So maybe he could write after all.

 

[Kodanshi]

There's your problem. You're relying on a translation, not the original language. When translating a text, context also makes a difference. Words before and after a particular word can change what a particular word means.

Again, you really have no argument here.

Most muslims rely on a translation. I studied ‘Arabic a lot during my most fundamental phase of belief (immediately prior to my apostasy). I am not relying on that translation. I am showing you a translation that follows the original ‘Arabic itself, and then translating it for you.

The Qur’ān was written like five centuries after the crucifixion. I would go, personally, with the accounts closer to the actual event by people like John and Peter who were actually there and recorded it for us and preached it with confirming signs and miracles following.

Though I do not believe that, my point supports this. Muslim tradition holds that Jesus did not die on the cross. That he was lifted bodily into Heaven without dying. Yet the Muslim holy book itself agrees with Christianity that Jesus died. It has simply suffered a lot of mistranslation, though some of the current crop of translators are braving a more accurate rendition (Muhammad Asad and Tarif Khalidi, for example).

 

[Breathe]

Um. It says in the first chapter of Revelation that Jesus told John to, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter." So maybe he could write after all.

I sincerely doubt that John is the same as the author of the Gospel of John (who was most probably not John the disciple of Jesus).

"More recent methods of scholarship, such as textual criticism, have been influential in suggesting that John the Apostle, John the Evangelist and John of Patmos were three separate individuals. Differences in style, theological content, and familiarity with Greek between the Gospel of John, the epistles of John, and the Revelation are seen by some scholars as indicating three separate author.", Book of Revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a preface to my point, let me submit that nowhere does the Qur’ān state that Jews and Christians corrupted their holy books. It simply alleges that they misinterpreted the teachings found therein.

Even if it were to turn out that the Quran says Jesus did die - (a claim I am not going to make) - then how would this affect Islam, really? What would be different?

After all, would it not be human error as opposed to a Divine error?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think this is a good link explaining it:

Todd Lawson on Vimeo

Contains the history of Islamic belief regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus.

 

[croak]

Though I do not believe that, my point supports this. Muslim tradition holds that Jesus did not die on the cross. That he was lifted bodily into Heaven without dying. Yet the Muslim holy book itself agrees with Christianity that Jesus died. It has simply suffered a lot of mistranslation, though some of the current crop of translators are braving a more accurate rendition (Muhammad Asad and Tarif Khalidi, for example).

So basically Muslim scholars have been getting it wrong for centuries?

I suppose you could argue that Jesus died on the cross and was then lifted to Heaven. That seems to be a minority view. Islamic view of Jesus' death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Koldaramor]

(An-Nisáa), the verse is clear. Jesus did not die on the cross. The Jews believed that Jesus died on the cross.


Surat An-Nisa' [4:157] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.​

 

[fallingblood]

John wrote the book of Revelation, John and 1, 2, and 3 John, Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter. Perhaps they had a secretary . That they were illiterate and Peter was a humble, uneducated fisherman makes it all the more credible to me since they could not have made up such a character as Christ and certainly not his teachings, and points to their books as being truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. But that's just me.

Revelation was written by a completely different John.

Again, they were illiterate, and thus would not have been able to write. Acts tells us this. So there is no way they could have written anything, as they were illiterate.

Modern critical scholarship agrees that these books were not written by John and Peter. More so, the Gospel of John never states it was written by John. The author never names himself.

 

[fallingblood]

Most muslims rely on a translation. I studied ‘Arabic a lot during my most fundamental phase of belief (immediately prior to my apostasy). I am not relying on that translation. I am showing you a translation that follows the original ‘Arabic itself, and then translating it for you.

You only translated one word, and you did so against what the majority would have. You thus have to show us, beyond a reasonable doubt that it really does mean what you said. You haven't done that.

 

[Kodanshi]

You only translated one word, and you did so against what the majority would have. You thus have to show us, beyond a reasonable doubt that it really does mean what you said. You haven't done that.

I have shown you links to the same occurrence of the same word by the same translators that show it to mean ‘caused to die’. Only in the case of Jesus do they ever translate it into something different.

 

[fallingblood]

I have shown you links to the same occurrence of the same word by the same translators that show it to mean ‘caused to die’. Only in the case of Jesus do they ever translate it into something different.

You only showed a few verses that supported your position. And then, you didn't explain the context of those verses. Various words will effect the translation of other words. One word can mean various things, it depends on context.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quran 2:154:

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of God: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not. "

The Author of Quran says, that those who are killed in the path of God are not dead. Why? Because even their physical bodies are killed, but their spirit is not killed in the sight of God.

Thus, since Jesus was killed in the path of God, it is clear that the Author of Quran, would not say, he is killed. He would say, Jesus is not crucifies or killed, because in the sight of God His spirit was not crucified and killed, but only His physical body.

 

[Shermana]

What linked site are you talking about? Because I simply don't see it. The link for the first verse you provided, definitely doesn't do what you are saying. In fact, that link posts a verse from the Quran that contradicts what you are saying. Really, I don't see you having an argument at all.

I always thought the Quran says "Jesus appeared to have died but he did not".