INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT

[zenzero]

Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds

 

[Skwim]

All events, including acts of every kind, have a cause, so in that respect they're dependent: dependent on whatever it is that brings them into existence.

 

[atanu]

All events, including acts of every kind, have a cause, so in that respect they're dependent: dependent on whatever it is that brings them into existence.

Suppose a crow alights on a branch of a coconut tree and a ripe coconut falls. Suppose a flower blooms in the spring.

Are the two events, in each of the above cases, independent that merely happen together and mind assigns the cause-effect?

 

[zenzero]

Friend atanu,

Suppose a crow alights on a brach of a coconut tree and a ripe coconut falls. Suppose a flower blooms in the spring.

Are the two events, in each of the above cases, independent that merely happen together and mind assigns the cause-effect?

Exactly!
But that is the question that have asked; if and what be the response; kindly could you explain why??

Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend skwim.

Friend atanu has posed another question to your response.
However even if cause and effect are taken into consideration if we look at any act minutely we find that a tree sheds it leaves one could say there is a cause and effect and it cannot be denied but on further examination again minutely to the eaxct time when the act happens, we find the leaf simply drops off - effortlessly.
In another way if we examine cause and effect we find that due to a cause the effect happens and so working backwards if one removes the cause the effect will not be there can one remove the cause [in nature]??

Love & rgds

 

[Skwim]

Suppose a crow alights on a brach of a coconut tree and a ripe coconut falls. Suppose a flower blooms in the spring.

Are the two events, in each of the above cases, independent that merely happen together and mind assigns the cause-effect?

In the first case it may or may not be a cause/effect relationship. Did the crow's landing induce the coconut to fall? If it did then there's a C/E correlation, if not then it's a coincidence.

In the second case it all depends on where in the chain of events one wants to attribute the cause. One could say that it's the genes in the plant's make-up that caused it to bloom; or one could say it was the warming weather the caused the genes to cause the plant to bloom, or one could say it was the change in the Earths alignment with the Sun that caused the weather to warm to cause the genes to act so as to order the plant to bloom; or one could say it was the change in the Earths position in its orbit that caused the change in its alignment with Sun, that caused the weather to get warmer, that caused the the genes to go into action that caused the plant to bloom. So, the plant's blooming is the end result of this change of causes, as well as other participating chains of causes/effects. So, you could say that the plant's blooming was dependent on spring occurring.

 

[Skwim]

Friend skwim.

Friend atanu has posed another question to your response.
However even if cause and effect are taken into consideration if we look at any act minutely we find that a tree sheds it leaves one could say there is a cause and effect and it cannot be denied but on further examination again minutely to the eaxct time when the act happens, we find the leaf simply drops off - effortlessly.

In another way if we examine cause and effect we find that due to a cause the effect happens and so working backwards if one removes the cause the effect will not be there can one remove the cause [in nature]??

Sure one can remove the cause of a probable and even inevitable effect. If, from previous experience, I know that large rotting limbs of trees eventually fall, and I spot such a limb hanging over my swimming pool, and I go up into the tree and carefully remove it I have prevented it from falling into my pool. I just prevented a cause --the rotting of a tree limb--from an effect---the limb falling off the tree.

 

[atanu]

Sure one can remove the cause of a probable and even inevitable effect. .......

So, one can drill down and remove cause of all causes -- or whether the cause exists as cause or just as happening then?

That I think is the point of Zen's question?

 

[Skwim]

So, one can drill down and remove cause of all causes -- or whether the cause exists as cause or just as happening then?

Of course not. If an effect exists it has to have a cause. As for any "cause of all causes," that appears to still be in the hands of cosmologists to work out.

That I think is the point of Zen's question?

Is that a statement or a question?

 

[zenzero]

Friend skwim,

Thank you for your response.
Though would not like to deal with cause of causes at the moment do like to know how you would remove the falling of leaves at all.
You may grow the the somewhere else but still it will grow leaves which will fall during the fall season unless you plan to ensure that the fall season never occurs.
Meaning to state that the MOMENT at hand is still HERE and independent of past and future and so are acts.

Love & rgds

 

[chinu]

Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds

When happening it is Independent.
When happened it is Dependent.

Why?

Break some of the forum rules and then see.



_/\_
Chinu

 

[Tom Terrific]

Friends,

A question that would like to place before everyone and may be viewed from any angle/point be it scientific or religious and that is:

is an act INDEPENDENT or DEPENDENT on any thing else & why?

The responses may help us unraveling the mysteries of life!

Love & rgds

I'm not a psychologist or a physicist; but I remember reading that Carl Jung and Max Planck once had a conversation or correspondence concerning the realization on both their parts that there exist effects that precede their causes.

Once you accept this as a possibility, I think it really changes the character of the "determinism - free will" discussion.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Tom,

There is no denying about cause & effect.
That part is true and accepted; however if any action is broken into into parts frame by frame and the moment at hand is taken very consciously one finds the present moment is independent of the past moment or the future and likewise the happening!
To understand the above sentence one has to himself conscious of the PRESENT to understand and realize what is spoken off!

Love & rgds

n.b. The human mind is always living in the past or future and only few who live in the present. {e.g. a POINTER} Can anyone say: I am doing this? No cause by the time the words are delivered the moment has gone [past]

 

[atanu]

Of course not. If an effect exists it has to have a cause.

:clap

My corollary: Without an effect (the thinker) the question of determining dependent vs. independent will not arise.

 

[Skwim]

Friend skwim,

Thank you for your response.
Though would not like to deal with cause of causes at the moment do like to know how you would remove the falling of leaves at all.

I have no idea. Some things we can do, others we cannot.

You may grow the the somewhere else but still it will grow leaves which will fall during the fall season unless you plan to ensure that the fall season never occurs.
Meaning to state that the MOMENT at hand is still HERE and independent of past and future and so are acts.

Not sure where you're going with this, but just let me say that leaves don't fall for no reason. Here is the reason (cause).

"Deciduous - Latin for 'falling' - trees, use an elaborate cellular mechanism to part company from their leaves, which act as "solar cells" in the summer but become superfluous in the darker winter months.

At the base of each leaf is a special layer called the abscission zone. When the time comes in autumn to shed a leaf, cells in this layer begin to swell, slowing the transport of nutrients between the tree and leaf.

Once the abscission zone has been blocked, a tear line forms and moves downwards, until eventually the leaf is blown away or falls off. A protective layer seals the wound, preventing water evaporating and bugs getting in."
source
​

So the act of leaves falling off is caused by the above stated reason. Other than possibly some subatomic events, absolutely nothing happens without a cause.

 

[smokeybear]

The two hemispheres of the brain perceive life differently.

The left brain sees parts interacting with each other and thus would see phenomena as dependent.

The right brain perceives an independent whole.

The left brain would see a leaf fall as a foreground phenomenon

The right brain would not see the leaf fall, but would see itself with all of life in constant motion.

The left brain focuses on matter.

The right brain is enmeshed in energy.

Brain scientist, Jill Bolte Taylor's experience in having a stroke illustrates the difference in left hemisphere and right hemisphere functions.

[youtube]UyyjU8fzEYU[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

​

Our western culture has been increasingly left-brain oriented for many centuries. This tendency has thrown our civilization off-balance. Natural forces are now pushing the pendulum toward right brain influence.

​

The image is from Imbalanced Brain, Imbalanced Civilization.
​

.
​

 

[zenzero]

Friend skwim,

As mentioned before,

The human mind is always living in the past or future and only few who live in the present. {e.g. a POINTER} Can anyone say: I am doing this? No cause by the time the words are delivered the moment has gone [past]

Once again, CAUSE & EFFECT is accepted in totality but the pointer here is possible o be understood only when the individual reading it brings his mind to the very PRESENT where the mind is still and the moment too stills without any past or future and only then will the statement be understood and realised.

Love & rgds

n.b. if you get the point, do respond!

 

[zenzero]

Friend smokeybear,

Yes, the fact about the left and right brain is real and accepted. However; would point towards the point in between both the brain where one is in a balance and from there can reach both the right or left side of the brain as per the the response called for at that moment without being tied to the position.

Love & rgds

Love & rgds

 

[Skwim]

Friend skwim,

As mentioned before,

Once again, CAUSE & EFFECT is accepted in totality but the pointer here is possible o be understood only when the individual reading it brings his mind to the very PRESENT where the mind is still and the moment too stills without any past or future and only then will the statement be understood and realised.

Love & rgds

n.b. if you get the point, do respond!

And who are these "few who live in the present. {e.g. a POINTER}"?

It appears your taking the notion of "present" to its philosophical limits, sandwiched into an infinitesimal point between the past and present, making any reference to it impracticably meaningless.

 

[zenzero]

Friend skwim,

Sorry if have not been able to communicate what was trying to communicate.
Was trying to point to the fact that masters are those who have mastered their minds and that mastery is only that, that their minds are mostly/always living in the present moment which has neither any past or future.

Rgds

It appears your taking the notion of "present" to its philosophical limits, sandwiched into an infinitesimal point between the past and present, making any reference to it impracticably meaningless.

Personally do not find it as *meaningless* but *totally meaningful* cause it is totally an individualistic matter and a state where the individual form is in a state of unity with the universal. It is very difficult to explain cause one is not present *himself* as an observer observing to communicate his observation but a state of a merged entity between the observer and the observed.

Love & rgds