The period after death

[URAVIP2ME]

All of Jesus's illustrations are of something true and could happen. Jesus doesnt use false ideas in his illustrations. Jesus used words that clearly show that when one dies in the flesh that he is carried off to another location in the "Spirit/soul" state of existance. Paul also explains to die is gain for he will be with jesus. Stephen calls out to Jesus to recieve his spirit. When Jesus dies he says to the Father, "into your hands I commit my spirit". 1 Thes 4:14 says Jesus will be bringing these Spirit/souls of those who have died with him. Luke 20:38 says God is the God of the living. Paul says to be absent from the body in death is to be home with Jesus. Matt 10:28 says dont be afraid of those that can kill the body but not the soul. Jesus tells the thief that today they would be in paradise(at death).
In Love,
tom

Spirit and soul are not the same. God used his spirit in creation.
God did not use his soul.- Psalm 104v30.

God is a God of the living because faithful dead are viewed as alive because they will be resurrected back to life. Acts 24v15.

Right we should not fear the one who can not kill the soul [person] but be in fear of the one who can destroy the soul [one's life] in Gehenna. Mt 10v28 B.
Isn't that why Acts 3v23 can state the soul can be destroyed.
Since the soul in Not immortal it dies. -Ezekiel 18 vs4,20.
Satan is also Not immortal and will be destroyed. Heb 2v14 B.

Jesus was not in paradise on the day he died.
Jesus went to hell. -Acts 2vs27,31;Psalm 16v10
The burning pagan hell is not the Biblical hell or common grave of mankind.

KJV has the comma in the wrong place. Truly I tell you today, you will be [future tense] in paradise. The promise was made the day of death or 'today' I am making you a promise that in the future you will be with me in paradise.
Paradise or the thousand-year reign of Christ is still ahead of us.
Jesus was not resurrected to heaven until 50 days after his resurrection.

 

[icebuddy]

Spirit and soul are not the same. God used his spirit in creation.
God did not use his soul.- Psalm 104v30.

i agree they are not the same.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is a God of the living because faithful dead are viewed as alive because they will be resurrected back to life. Acts 24v15.

Then who is God bringing with him here before they get their new bodies?

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died.

Right we should not fear the one who can not kill the soul [person] but be in fear of the one who can destroy the soul [one's life] in Gehenna. Mt 10v28 B.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The passage is clear, the body can be killed, but not the soul. Man can only kill the body, but thats all he can do to you, he cannot kill your soul. For only God can destroy both Body and Soul.

Isn't that why Acts 3v23 can state the soul can be destroyed.

i believe the word soul can be used is different ways explained in the strongs dictionay. The soul can be the whole person or it can be the inner man. For example, in a war 25 souls died at the hands of the enemy, yet the same word can be used to say, dont fear those that can only kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, fear God who can destroy both.

Since the soul in Not immortal it dies. -Ezekiel 18 vs4,20.

The soul that sins will die. Again the word soul has more than 1 meaning, it can describe the whole person or the inner man. I heard you also throw a term at me that could mean "Spiritual death" or something in that manner. Anyway, my belief is that the term "Soul" means more than just 1 deffinition. just as you believe God has more than 1 deffinition. There are passages that explain the soul as having different meanings as well. There are passages that say "souls depart at death" meaning it can be more than just the persons living body.

Satan is also Not immortal and will be destroyed. Heb 2v14 B.

No one is immortal to God who created

Jesus was not in paradise on the day he died.

That sounds so anti-biblical to me... you need to know that the term "Truly I say to you" is a term found 74 times in the bible. its a greek saying and always is said before the content of the sentence. Hence, a comma is placed correctly in all 74 places in the bible it appears. The term as you might believe, "Truly I say to you today", is not a greek saying and only apears once in the bible. We must be consistant when translating scripture and not let our belief translate it for us. Do you think its best to be consistant in translating scripture?

The NWT correctly places the comma 73 out of 74 times after this greek saying, why the inconsistancy?

Jesus went to hell. -Acts 2vs27,31;Psalm 16v10

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The burning pagan hell is not the Biblical hell or common grave of mankind.

What did Jesus say?

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Dont blame pagans for making up a story such as a burning hot place where people are tormented. Blame Jesus

Paradise or the thousand-year reign of Christ is still ahead of us.

i do not disagree that the 1000 year reign is ahead of us, but paradise is a place that exists now.

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Jesus was not resurrected to heaven until 50 days after his resurrection.

But he was somewhere for 3 days before.

in Love,
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was dead for parts of three days.
Then the resurrected Jesus spent 40 days on earth.
Then Jesus ascended to heaven, and ten days later after Jesus ascended at Pentecost holy spirit was poured out thus at that point was the start of the Christian congregation.

Jesus used the word: Gehenna. Gehenna was a burning garbage dump where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. Don't blame Jesus for those that translated the Greek word Gehenna into hellfire. The Bible hell is the stone cold common grave.
Gehenna is Not the common grave of mankind [haides/sheol] but symbolic of destruction. That is why Psalm 92v7 says destroyed or annihilated forever.

How do you know that Paul at 2 Cor 12 was not referring to 2nd Peter 3v13?
Isn't the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells: paradise?

Please notice there are 'three' heavens and earths mentioned:

1] vs 5 the heavens and earth of 'old' referring to the corrupt ruling heavens and earth of Noah's day.

2] vs7 the heavens and earth of 'now' referring to the corrupt time after Noah's day down to our day or our 'now' time frame.

3] vs13 'new' in that the ruling heavens under Christ will be righteous and 'new' earthly society under Christ will be righteous or paradisaic.

We know now is the time for spiritual healing or curing among God's people or a spiritual harvest season to enjoy spiritual prosperity and spiritual blessings or benefits.
Paul could have seen that in vision to such a superlative degree as to be caught up to the spiritual paradise before the physical paradise happening during Jesus 1000-year reign.

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus was dead for parts of three days.

Where was his spirit for those 3 days?

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:

Jesus used the word: Gehenna. Gehenna was a burning garbage dump where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. Don't blame Jesus for those that translated the Greek word Gehenna into hellfire.

i dont think it will last forever, although many people do. i believe it will last until the different degrees of punishment are over for each person in it. however, Jesus himself talks about a place that mimics Hellfire in luke 16. You cannot escape Jesus's own words

Luk 16:22 Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham.
Luk 16:24 "The rich man shouted, `Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.'

Luk 16:28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'

Sound like a place called "Hellfire" to me. Again, dont blame anyone but Jesus for this one.

How do you know that Paul at 2 Cor was not referring to 2nd Peter 3v13?

I assume you are talking about 2 Cor 5:6-8...
Paul says directly that to be at home in the body - Showing the real us are inside these flesh bodies - and Paul says he prefers to be absent from the Body (Dead) and at home with Jesus. If Paul had thought there was a waiting period or that he had to wait until the resurrection to be at home with Jesus, then why would he say to die is gain and to die equates being at home with Jesus. Either ways you must answer these questions in your own head

What do you think Paul meant by the phrase, "To be absent from the body and to be home with the Lord"?

Paul also talks in Philipians 1:21-23 that to die is gain. if i go on living in the body (showing the real paul is inside the body, the inner man) Paul says he has a choice, to die and depart to be with Christ or to live in the body. Clearly as seen by stephen that at death stephen crys out to the Lord to recieve his spirit. This we see is how paul says to die and depart to be with Christ.

The only reason you dont believe in life after death is because of 2 old testament passages that are not writen in the context of the afterlife but to those living on earth. Because of that you ignore the rest of scriptures because of WTBS dogma, which I believe is so clearly wrong. But i dont have the fear of the WTBS in me, and I dont believe they are fully on Jesus's team because of false prophesies of the past. If you claim they are not a Prophet and can make mistakes, then you must then admit this could be another one of them. That to die is gain and we Depart our bodies and are then at home with Jesus as he recieves our spirit.

Paul could have seen that in vision to such a superlative degree as to be caught up to the spiritual paradise before the physical paradise happening during Jesus 1000-year reign.

you are rationalizing the bible to your belief at this point. Thats fine if you want to do so, but your churches belief is controling your understanding of the bible. We all have done this to a degree, but I see Pauls words as clear. Ask yourself a question:

Where did Stephens spirit go at death?

Act 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

in Love,
Tom
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=7&t=NASB#59

 

[javajo]

I see this a lot. People try to make the Bible fit their pre-determined beliefs rather than reading it and trying to understand what it is really trying to teach us, using correct rules of interpretation and not twisting it and taking it out of its original meaning or content and jumping through hoops to make it fit what you want it to say. So many people are lead astray in this manner.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tom- aka icebuddy,

Where was Jesus' spirit for 3 days? It returned to God.
All future life prospect at that point depended on God resurrecting Jesus.
Jesus being asleep in death, unconscious, in the grave [Biblical hell] would not have his life's spirit back until God resurrected him. Jesus did not resurrect himself.
[Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; John 11vs11-14]

Luke 16 is a parable or a story or illustration. Not an actual happening.

Paul had a vision. All of Jesus 'brothers' [of Matt 25v40; 1 Cor 15v50] like Paul had a heavenly hope. That does not mean Paul could not have seen the fulfillment of the promise of 2nd Peter 3v13 where sheep-like people [Matt 25v32] will dwell on a righteous earth in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families and all nations will be blessed.
-Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2.

Where did Stephen's spirit go at death? Like Jesus' spirit it returned to God.
After Stephen said receive my spirit, or life force, at Acts 7v60 concludes with that Stephen fell asleep [in death].
So Stephen like Jesus slept in death.
The prophet Daniel also believed the dead sleep until resurrection day or the time of Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth. Daniel 12vs2,13.

 

[icebuddy]

I see this a lot. People try to make the Bible fit their pre-determined beliefs rather than reading it and trying to understand what it is really trying to teach us, using correct rules of interpretation and not twisting it and taking it out of its original meaning or content and jumping through hoops to make it fit what you want it to say. So many people are lead astray in this manner.

Who are you directing this towards?

in Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Where was Jesus' spirit for 3 days? It returned to God.

Ok, so you believe Jesus's spirit was with God for the 3 days his body was in the grave

All future life prospect at that point depended on God resurrecting Jesus.

Jesus, while in the Spirit, also joined the Father in resurrecting himself.

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Jhn 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Jhn 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Jhn 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus being asleep in death, unconscious, in the grave [Biblical hell] would not have his life's spirit back until God resurrected him. Jesus did not resurrect himself.

Jesus said he would raise his own body in 3 days. Just like in Creation, Jesus was there side by side with the Father. Why would you think Jesus could exist in Spirit before comming to earth, yet not think he could exist in Spirit while with the Father for the 3 days his flesh was in the grave?

Luke 16 is a parable or a story or illustration. Not an actual happening.

Jesus did talk about a place that looks alot like "HellFire" and did talk about Spiritual existance after death in the Flesh. Im only agreeing with Jesus, you say it was a Story of untruths, not me. You may find yourself siding with the WTBS over Jesus here.

Paul had a vision. All of Jesus 'brothers' [of Matt 25v40; 1 Cor 15v50] like Paul had a heavenly hope.

Read the passages. Paul said to Die is to be away from the body and at home with Jesus. Explain to me what Paul meant by "Absent from the Body" and "At Home with Jesus"? Paul also says Death is to "Depart and be with Christ". What departed? What was absent from the Body that Paul thought still existed? Stephen says, "Lord Jesus recieve my spirit". Why? Maybe Stephen knew as paul did, to Die was Gain and that death meant to depart the body in Spirit and be at home with Jesus. Jesus's Story in Luke 16 Mimics all of this with the Afterlife of Spirits that exist after death in the Flesh. I didnt just make this up, its in the Bible and I believe it. Even if its a parable, its a true Parable of true things that could actualy happen...

Where did Stephen's spirit go at death? Like Jesus' spirit it returned to God.
After Stephen said receive my spirit, or life force, at Acts 7v60 concludes with that Stephen fell asleep [in death].

it seems very unlikely that Stephen would make an apeal to Jesus to "recieve My Spirit" if the Spirit was Just a life force with no personal connections. Like Paul says, "To die is to depart and be at home with Jesus", which is far better.

In Love,
Tom

I see this a lot. People try to make the Bible fit their pre-determined beliefs rather than reading it and trying to understand what it is really trying to teach us, using correct rules of interpretation and not twisting it and taking it out of its original meaning or content and jumping through hoops to make it fit what you want it to say. So many people are lead astray in this manner.

im currious to see who Java Joe wrote this to....

 

[javajo]

Yo, Icebuddy! I did not write that toward you, lol! I agree with all your posts. I just think some of these guys need to take a class in interpretation. I'm sure it will be of no avail, but here is the Golden Rule for Interpretation and link if anyone wants to really understand what the Bible says:
Do You Interpret the Bible Literally?

When the plain sense of Scripture​

makes common sense,​

seek no other sense;​

Therefore, take every word​

at its primary, ordinary,​

usual, literal meaning​

Unless the facts​

of the immediate context,​

studied in the light​

Of related passages and​

axiomatic and fundamental truths​

indicate clearly otherwise.​

 

[javajo]

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man...Luke 16:1 (Denoting a real person)

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn 10:17-18 (Christ rose from the grave victorious over death. While it is true many passages say God raised him from the Grave, remember, Jesus is God, too.)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
...we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...from 1 Thess 4 (when people die they go immediately to Heaven and will return with Jesus from Heaven at the Rapture)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man...Luke 16:1 (Denoting a real person)
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn 10:17-18 (Christ rose from the grave victorious over death. While it is true many passages say God raised him from the Grave, remember, Jesus is God, too.)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
...we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...from 1 Thess 4 (when people die they go immediately to Heaven and will return with Jesus from Heaven at the Rapture)

There is an 'un-named rich man' mentioned at Luke 16v1 besides the 'un-named rich man' of verse 19. They are two different un-named rich men. Whereas the rich man of Matthew 27v57 is named.

At Luke 16v1 the illustration is directed to Jesus disciples
At Luke 16vs 14-18 the illustration is addressed to the Pharisees.

Why doesn't Jesus believe he is God?
Why does Jesus believe he is the beginning of the creation by God?
Why does the heavenly resurrected Jesus still think he is the Son of God?
Why is there no Scripture that says Jesus resurrected himself?
-John 10v36; Rev 3v14 B; 2v18

Who are the sheep of Matthew 25v32?
Who are Jesus 'brothers of Matthew 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50?
Who are the 'little flock' of Luke 12v32?
Who are the 'other sheep' of John 10v16?
Aren't the sheep of John 10v16 the same as the sheep of Matthew 25v32?
Aren't Jesus 'little flock' the same as Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew 25v40?

The sheep are not Jesus brothers that are called to reign with Jesus.
Rev 5vs9,10 shows those reigning with Jesus serve as kings and priests.
In order to do that they have to have subjects under them.
The sheep [other sheep] are those subjects.

So at the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25v31] Jesus 'brothers' do not sleep in death but are resurrected right away at death. Like Jesus, after his resurrection, they are also caught away up in the clouds.
Jesus 'brothers' [little flock] are part of the first resurrection of Rev 20v6.
Jesus sheep [other sheep] either can remain alive at the time of Jesus 'glory' and keep right on living into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
Matthew 25v46
Or, those already asleep in the grave [Biblical hell] will be as Rev 20vs13, 14 says 'delivered up' [resurrected] from the common grave of mankind or the Biblical hell for the sleeping dead during Jesus millennial reign over earth.

-Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4; Daniel 12v2,13; John 11vs11-14

 

[javajo]

It is the common teaching among Christians that we go to Heaven immediately when we die, as I've shown above. Also the myriad accounts of Christians describing Heaven, their loved ones, Jesus and Angels, the joy and peace they were experiencing as they were dying. Then there are near-death experiences where they die and come back and describe Heaven. The death of unbelievers is much different if you read the accounts.

Paul said it was FAR BETTER to be with Christ than to suffer in this world. He longed to be with the Lord, but was content to serve down here until is course was finished.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Philipians 1:21-23

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It is the common teaching among Christians that we go to Heaven immediately when we die, as I've shown above. Also the myriad accounts of Christians describing Heaven, their loved ones, Jesus and Angels, the joy and peace they were experiencing as they were dying. Then there are near-death experiences where they die and come back and describe Heaven. The death of unbelievers is much different if you read the accounts.
Paul said it was FAR BETTER to be with Christ than to suffer in this world. He longed to be with the Lord, but was content to serve down here until is course was finished.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Philipians 1:21-23

...and Paul's course was to serve in heaven as being part of the earlier or first resurrection of Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10. To serve as a king and Priest.
Both kings and priests have subjects.
Kings take care of governmental needs of the subjects and priests take care of spiritual needs of the subjects.
Those subjects are not living in heaven but living on earth.-2 Peter 3v13

So do all Christians go to heaven at death?
If they did, then why would hell [Biblical common grave of mankind] still be in existence at Rev 20vs13,14? Notice all are not 'delivered up' [resurrected] until the thousand year reign of Christ. -Matthew 11v11

Aren't the 'sheep-like ones' of Matthew 25v32 Christian?
Aren't Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew 25v40 Christian?
Yet the Christian sheep are judged on the basis of how they [sheep] treat Jesus Christian 'brothers' of verse 40. Jesus spiritual 'brothers' are the Christians of 1st Cor 15v50 and are not the sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
Many Christian 'sheep' have already died, and not all will be alive at the time of Jesus 'glory' -Matt 25v31- so they are sleeping death's deep sleep asleep in the grave [hell] until resurrection morning or Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over earth.

There are Christians that go to heaven, and there are Christians that remain on earth to become those humble meek that will inherit, not heaven,
but inherit earth or the earthly realm of God's kingdom.
Psalm 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30.

 

[javajo]

Again, our interpretation of scripture is greatly different. Knowing I will be instantly with the Lord when I die is a source of great comfort and joy, along with knowing I may not die, but be raptured out very soon. That and having full assurance of my salvation all brings me great joy and I feel the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is in agreement with my spirit on this.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Again, our interpretation of scripture is greatly different. Knowing I will be instantly with the Lord when I die is a source of great comfort and joy, along with knowing I may not die, but be raptured out very soon. That and having full assurance of my salvation all brings me great joy and I feel the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is in agreement with my spirit on this.

When was Jesus caught up in the clouds? Wasn't it after he was resurrected?
So doesn't that mean Jesus died first before being caught up in the clouds?

Paul know too he would have to die first before being caught up [resurrected] because Paul wrote that flesh and blood can not inherit God's kingdom.
-1Cor 15v50.

So Jesus spiritual 'brothers' called to heaven [ 1Thess 4vs13-17] will not sleep in death [1Cor 15v52] because they are part of the earlier or first resurrection of Rev 20v6; Phil 3vs10,11.

 

[mitchellmckain]

First of all I believe that all living things have an eternal aspect of their being which is a product of the choices they make in life, which I call the spirit. It is a reflection of the way in which our choices define what we are. It is a form of energy that is what it is by its own nature and not by any relationship to anything outside of itself. There are a few significant consequences of this.

The first is that any relationships with things outside of itself must come from within -- from the those choice that have defined its own nature. There is no longer any imposition from the outside to provide any traction by which it can change its course, so it will continue moving in the same direction as it was before, following its values, desires and beliefs unchanged. Thus it is very important to understand that there is no great revelation of truth moment to be found after death.

Thus I believe that the experience after death under the parameters you have outlined might best be described as ones hearts desire under all the limitations of your own heart and imagination. If this sounds great and nice, then your understanding of spiritual things is not very promising. It is most likely a nightmare unless you have learned some mistrust of your desires and thus have a habit of looking outside of yourself for direction, value and truth. Certainly if you have made no substantial connections to people, for who they truly are, then whatever the appearances may be the truth is that you will be alone. To be as a little child looking for a parent to pick you up and take you where you need to be, could very well be immensely helpful.

But this is not likely. What is most likely is that your desires will become your reality and all the longing wants of your life will become a railroad track upon which your experience will be fixed beyond any ability of yours to change. Thus you will pursue what you have valued in life single-mindedly to the conclusion of where that must ultimately lead. If you had the wherewithal to do so, you would hope that you had made the right choices, but most likely you will not question it at all -- especially if you have not made a habit in your life of doubting yourself.

Thus where you go and what you experience are entirely things of your own creation, and heaven and hell are not bins into which someone else judges you to belong. Instead these are the ultimate polarizations of destiny with respect to life and death. Either you have what you need in order to find eternal life or you are on a course to a place of your own creation where you are the god and master of all that you will see and have. You can envision it as two roads set before you, one promises comfort and all that you desire where you will be what you want to be, and the on the other is the discomfort of facing all the things which you have avoided, where you have to face the truth of yourself. The question is whether you can choose wisely between these two roads, for most would take the first road and call it heaven, but life is not found in comfort and so that great vacation retreat is a vacation from life itself. On that road you will follow your desires to see it proven that you have chosen wrongly and that a world where you are god and master is not such a nice place after all.

In other words, there is a heaven and hell, but they are not anything like what is commonly envisioned.

One is comfortable and the other is not comfortable at all. But the comfortable one isn't heaven. Life isn't found in comfort but in change and growth and for people mired in bad habits and sin, change and growth are a painful process of dying to oneself over and over again.

One offers you your heart's desire, but that one isn't heaven. If you know yourself better then you know that your desires are deceptive and misleading. What heaven offers is something quite different than you desires -- it offers you what God desires for you. What God desires for you is life and that takes growth and strength and love. That isn't easy, but while your desires are sure to prove a disappointment that will only lead to despair, the life that God offers is one that will prove to give you joy that increases without limit.

Hell requires no tormentor but yourself, for evil people create torment and nightmares all around them. They are full of self-loathing and contempt for everything wholesome, though they are usually so filled with lies that they may lie to themselves that this is otherwise. So the question isn't whether someone is going to torment you for your misdeeds in life but whether you have the courage and willing heart to ask help from those you have wronged, because that is what it is like to ask the help of the only one who can save you from yourself.

But the decision is one you have to make now because death offers no help or answers at all. It is like being shot from a gun. Where you go all depends on where you pointed yourself in life. You need to put yourself into the hands of God, because otherwise you will be under the law of sin which is much like the law of gravity, so that no matter how good you look, it will drag you down to the same ultimate destination and the farther you fall the faster you fall.

I believe in perfect justice where for every good thing you do in life, you will be very thankful for, and every bad thing will be a source of great regret. But this perfect justice is not the same thing as heaven or hell, but something which applies to both of these places. There is no escape from the consequence of what you have done either way. The issue of heaven or hell is rather whether you are willing to face them and learn from them, because you can run from them, but that is the way of hell, where you never learn and grow, but only go to the death of the spirit and despair.

 

[mitchellmckain]

It is the common teaching among Christians that we go to Heaven immediately when we die

This whole question of immediately (as if God, heaven and hell were a part of time and space) is nonsensical.

It is only the physical world where time and space are objective mathematical measures. But flesh and blood, atoms and molecules, biology and physics cannot inherit the kingdom of God. God is spirit and our destiny is either to be with Him in spirit or be apart from Him in spiritual death.

Also the myriad accounts of Christians describing Heaven, their loved ones, Jesus and Angels, the joy and peace they were experiencing as they were dying. Then there are near-death experiences where they die and come back and describe Heaven. The death of unbelievers is much different if you read the accounts.

Paul said it was FAR BETTER to be with Christ than to suffer in this world. He longed to be with the Lord, but was content to serve down here until is course was finished.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Philipians 1:21-23

Yes this world serves a purpose. Like the limitations of the womb, it protects us from our own shortcommings in our infancy and we live in a kind of forced proximity to our parent God. But this universe of mathematical laws is a place of fire and decay, where our entire world can be annihilated by the commonest of the forces that move around in it. So to look for anything lasting in this world is foolish. What is important is only the choices we make here while we have the chance.

 

[james2ko]

It is the common teaching among Christians that we go to Heaven immediately when we die, as I've shown above. Also the myriad accounts of Christians describing Heaven, their loved ones, Jesus and Angels, the joy and peace they were experiencing as they were dying. Then there are near-death experiences where they die and come back and describe Heaven. The death of unbelievers is much different if you read the accounts.

Paul said it was FAR BETTER to be with Christ than to suffer in this world. He longed to be with the Lord, but was content to serve down here until is course was finished.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Philipians 1:21-23

If we indeed go to heaven when we die, please explain:

Act 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

And:

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If we indeed go to heaven when we die, please explain:
Act 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
And:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Good point ^above^ and even John the Baptist did not go to heaven.
[Matthew 11v11]. John the Baptist died before Jesus died and opened up the way to heaven for those to whom he gives the kingdom rule over earth.
-Daniel 7v18,27;Rev 5vs9,10.

 

[Sententia]

Post and pre-life scenarios are very creative but I have never really grasped the threads to cling long enough to either.

When I was 2 or 3 my brain evolved enough to remember things over time.

When I die that same brain will die too. The idea that I am more then my brain is a very nice idea and wishful thinking but outside of reality.

When people say... Well when I see you in the afterlife I will say hi. Or when your physical form is gone and you are lost you will come towards the light... I just nod politely.

Because its either a psychopathic need to persist beyond this life that has a host of psychological issues I do not need to describe or a severe form of denial.

You are you because of your brain. Brain no work, you no work. Take care of your brain.