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The period after death

Im not saying you are wrong, but Jesus knows all things, and It could be that when Lazarus Died, he was carried off by angels to a place called Paradise or Abrahams bossom. Jesus's Story could have been about His Friend (knowing what would happen) or about someone simalar. Either way, Jesus did talk about a existance after death and before the ressurection.
In Love,
Tom

Upon Lazarus death, where was he ? Jesus, before arriving in Bethany, had told his disciples that "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep."(John 11:11) His disciples felt that perhaps Jesus meant literal sleep from being sick, but he informed them that "Lazarus has died."(John 11:12-14) Thus Jesus likened death to "sleep". It is also to be noted that Abraham was not alive and "in heaven", as some suppose, but that he was in the grave, awaiting a resurrection. (John 3:13)

The apostle Paul told the Corinthians that Jesus Christ was the first person resurrected from the dead for life in heaven, saying that "now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death."(1 Cor 15:20) In addition, Paul further said that "the way of entry into the holy place (heaven itself ) by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh."(Heb 10:19, 20) Thus, until Jesus died, the "entry" into heaven was closed, with Jesus being the "firstfruit" to "appear before the person of God."(Heb 9:24)

Jesus would not have spoken of Lazarus as being "asleep" if he were alive, "awake". As mentioned earlier, the Bible likens death to a deep sleep, saying that "the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."(Ecc 9:5) Therefore, all who have died, including Jesus while in the "memorial tomb" for "three days"(Matt 12:40), are totally unaware of time nor events, for Eccesiastes 9:10 says that "there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol (mankind's common grave)".

Hence, ' Abraham's bosom' did not picture literally Abraham being alive, with "Lazarus" being with him, but rather God's favor. If one will more closely analyze the account (without preconceived bias) of Luke 16 concerning "Lazarus and the Rich man", it can be noted that Jesus spoke of the "rich man" as in "torments", and that he requested the "Father Abraham have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire."(Luke 16, 23, 24)

Could a drop of water from the ' tip of his finger cool his tongue ' ? No. Many feel that Jesus was speaking of "torments" in hellfire, but such was not the case, for Jesus used "fire" in many instances as meaning everlasting destruction.(Matt 7:19; 13;40; 18:8) Instead, Jesus was illustrating the "torments" the religious leaders felt from being exposed by him and his disciples for what these religious leaders were, as wicked, not righteous in God's eyes. Jesus likened himself to "light" and said that "this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked."(John 3:19)

The religious leaders were wickedly angry to the point of wanting to kill Jesus and Lazarus.(John 11:49, 53; 12:10) These felt as if they were in a "blazing fire", being tormented by the hard pelting judgments from Jesus and refused the Kingdom message taught by him and his disciples. These later stoned Stephen for exposing them and telling them straightforwardly: "Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you are always resisting the holy spirit...Which one of the prophets did your forefathers not persecute ? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become."(Acts 7:51, 52)
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Why do you equate Paradise with Abraham's bosom?
Adam and Eve lived in the Paradise Garden of Eden which was located on earth. They were offered paradise on earth or everlasting life on earth.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

urvip2me,
It lines up with paradise. Being the place we are promised as the paradise of God.

2Cr 12:1 ¶ It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Here we read paradise as somewhere else that a place on earth. Maybe Paradise is just a word descibing something or maybe its a physical place, not sure exactly. But i view Abrahams bosom as paradise because it lines up with one another. If Jesus's story is true then thats where Jesus and the theif where at death, Paradise. Jesus also described as Abrahams Bosom. And Paul also calls it the 3rd Heaven. Again, these are my beliefs and Im expressing them because you asked. My question to you is after reading Pauls description of Paradise, do you still believe it is located on earth? 2 Cor 12:4

No one could go to heaven before Jesus died. [John 3v13]

In John 3 the context is Jesus explaining things to Nicodemus. He says how can you understand Heavenly things in verse 12. Because Jesus is the only one who has been in heaven and can explain them. For no man has ascended into heaven and back to explain them, only Jesus. However, everyone will ascent to heaven at death, for our Spirit go to be with God at death. Yet not one of us can come back from this place and explain it to humans living as described in Jesus's story of the rich man who wanted to warn his family, but couldnt. Context to me is showing that only Jesus has been in heaven and a man to explain it, no one else. Everyone else that has died, cannot return of his own will like Jesus did at ressurection. The key word is "MAN" in this passage. For as spirits, everyone that dies, their spirits go to God that gave it. So regaurdless of how you view the term "Spirit", some part of us go to be with God at death.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

it is clear to me that Stephen regaurded this as his personal spirit, not just some power source or battery that ran the real him. Not only did Stephen say it was "His Spirit", he cared that Jesus recieved it. Think about your own death, how would you of phrased what stephen has said? Would you even care, like stephen did?

Didn't Abraham die before Jesus?

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Moses also died before Jesus, yet there he was. i personaly think this was a true vission and that the bible isnt full of missguiding ideas, but truth. What strikes me is how did the disiples view this vission? What where their thoughts? They didnt doubt it was real for 1 second, they where ready to start making tents for them to sleep in.(NWT) That tells me that Peter did believe in a physical existance after death in a spiritual existance. That Peter didnt argue that this was impossible, but knew it was possible and true. That seeing Moses after he had died was not out of the realms of truth and accepted it as possible. (Again we need to think)

How is Jesus talking about a 'literal dead person' in John chapter eleven as being in a deep sleep-like state showing the dead to be awake?

Your own thoughts drive you to a unknown conclussion to me. People in deep sleep are not dead nor non-existant. That is something you believe and have concluded on your own. How do you know that the term deep sleep doesnt just mean although they look dead, they are not dead. Everything I read in the bible about death in the flesh, means life somewhere else. Jesus's story in luke 16, Paul explaination of death, God is the God of the living, Moses apearing to disiples, Jesus telling the thief that they would be in paradise the very day they died in the flesh, Jesus would raise his own body, and this is only whats on the top of my head...

Didn't Daniel look forward to the dead awakening from death's deep sleep on resurrection morning, so to speak, or awakening during Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth? -Dan 12vs2,13

When I read Daniel 12:1-13 I see this as a physical ressurection. Jesus tells us that unless we are born again, we will not have eternal life. So there is a spiritual rebirth and a physical rebirth. Daniel is talking about a physical rebirth and the ressurection. Where we will "put On" our new bodies and awake to the physical world. The problem I see is how one views the term "SLEEP". It is clear to me that you view sleep as dead and non-existant, but if you really think of it, sleep is anything but dead and non-existant. Next time you wake up in the morning ask yourself, where was I last night? Was I dead and non-existant or was i alive and just awoke...

in Love,
tom
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
URMVP2me,
I have been very busy coaching soccer (2teams), sons hockey, and still playing hockey myself. I do sneak in a few posts at work at break. FYI

I too don't claim to personally know everything.
As far as understanding, I hope my Scriptural references will back up what I am trying to say.

From my experiance many people interpit the scriptures differently. Im assuming you a JW or at least have many views like the watchtower. Some religions fit their belief into the bible (all guilty at some point) and some pull from the bible. i use to study with the JW a few years back and never could come up with their understanding or how they arrived to some belief such as you also have. Not all of them are different, we both Love Jesus and His Father, right. Take the 144,000 for example, I totaly disagree with WT theology. Not sure your take on it, but again Im asuming your a JW.

Is death a door to a better place for the living sheep-like ones of Matthew 25vs31,32? Don't they remain alive on earth and keep right on living on earth with everlasting life in view right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth? Who remain of Proverbs 2vs21,22?

i believe as you do here, just different getting there. play along with me, lets say Jesus's story is true in luke 16. We will all put on our new bodies, some to enter into the 1000 year reign with Jesus and some to the second death. Ask yourself a question after reading this:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

According to this passage who is God bringing with him? Do they have their bodies yet? The clear answer is no because they dont recieve their bodies until verse 16

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

And just to show you that everything isnt as it seems to others read this verse.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Who was the one with the loud voice or shout? notice it wasnt Jesus (same event)

Where will the 'sheep' be re-united with their dead loved ones?

Again, we dont disagree on everything, we just disagree on how we get there.

according to Genesis 2v7. When Adam died he lost life's spirit and ceased to exist.

You are reading something into the scriptures that simply isnt there. Indeed Gen 2:7 is simply telling us what man is, a living being, NOT what he is not. In other words, while Gen 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has a immaterial nature.

Breath and spirit go hand in hand. No breath no spirit

i disagree with your thinking a bit here.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

i like this passage because it shows 2 things. First Jesus himself says Death and sleep are not equal. Second, we see her spirit returning to her body. This means breath doesnt equal spirit.

Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Breath and Spirit are different to me. Here the Spirit within us understands, meaning more than just a life force.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?

Here we read that the Spirit is the real you inside your body. The spirit is much more than a life force that gets exhausted at death. Stephen when he dies tells Jesus to recieve his spirit. Stephens spirit was his personal spirit that he wanted Jesus to recieve at death.

What did the Jews of the time think? If Spirit equals breath then we should be able to enterchange them.

Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Act 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes [that were] of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

Here Spirit doesnt equal breath...

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Job 2:4 Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his soul.

i see soul as different

2Ti 4:6 ¶ For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Something departs at death. The disiples understood that they where aware in this state

Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul says to die is to depart and be with Chirst. just as Stephen says "Jesus recieve my spirit".

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do we come forth before the resurrection if we are non-existant?

God's spirit animates all living things. Ecc 3vs19,20.

You left out verse 21

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Paul, stephen, and all the disiples knew that their spirit went to be with Jesus at death. ECC is a bad book to use for doctorine. It uses a mans (under the sun) view of things. To show you look

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

no reward and forgotten? Sounds like mans view of things and not Gods. This whole book is written in a way that shows mans view in agony until the last chapter. Like saying, 'All is lost and all is for nothing, we die and are forgotten, for the dead know nothing. But behold, there is a God and all is not for nothing and we are remembered and the dead will be rewarded" - What I believe you(WTBS) have done is taken the wrong side of that type of writing and used it for doctorine.

So that energy, that force, that spirit, returns to the true God until one is resurrected to heaven or resurrected on earth.

The Disiples wrote as if they where going to be aware in the spirit that returns to Jesus at death. Ask yourself a question, would you ever say, "Lord Jesus recieve my Spirit" or "Id rather die and be with Christ which is a gain far better than living"? (phil 1:21-24 & Act 7:59)

in Love,
Tom
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
jaareshiah said:
Therefore, all who have died, including Jesus while in the "memorial tomb" for "three days"(Matt 12:40), are totally unaware of time nor events, for Eccesiastes 9:10 says that "there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol (mankind's common grave)".

Again, ECC is a bad book to use as doctorine.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

no reward and forgotten? Sounds like mans view of things and not Gods. This whole book is written in a way that shows mans view in agony until the last chapter. Like saying, 'All is lost and all is for nothing, we die and are forgotten, for the dead know nothing. But behold, there is a God and all is not for nothing and we are remembered and the dead will be rewarded" - What I believe you have done is taken the wrong side of that type of writing and used it for doctorine.

Paul writes to us that death is gain and to be with Christ, which is far better than living in the flesh. Phil 1:21-24
Jesus also tells us a story in Luke 16 that people are aware at death

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

What part of this man could have been "Out of the Body"? Paul writes to us of things that are possible. Look at when Moses appeared to Jesus and Peter before Jesus was taken, what did Peter think and say? He said lets build them tents. At no time did Peter think the existance of Moses was unreal or bizzare. Peter believed in the after life that exists after the death in the flesh.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is also the Place Jesus tells the Thief they would be the day they died in the flesh.

Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Act 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes [that were] of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

Ask yourself a question. The Pharasees believed in both Angels and Spirits. Is this why Peter who saw Moses said lets make tents? Peter did not excuse this apearance of Moses as a vission that was not real, he actualy wanted to make tents because he believed in Spirits that live after death.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

According to this passage who is God bringing with him? Do they have their bodies yet? remember they dont recieve their bodies until verse 16

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

Remember, How ever you want to look at Luke 16, Jesus did talk about death and people existing in a state of awareness after death. Paul also speaks of death as a place of awareness. You are focused on a Old testament passage in ECC that is talking from a mans view of things and not Gods. I would even say this mans view is a grim view at that. To side with this mans grim view of death and slap doctorine on it is crazy to me.

These are my views and how I see them. They are not meant in any ill will or negative way. i would rather be playing with my son and daughter than causing people grief.

In Love,
Tom
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Luke chapter 16 is a parable or illustration for the Pharisees of verse 14 that derided Jesus.

Just like the 'un-named rich man' of verse one is a parable or illustration,
so too the 'un-named rich man' of verse 19 is also a parable or illustration.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus said to John, James and Peter at Matthew 17v9 clearly to tell the 'vision' to no man.

So yes, Peter knew the appearance of Moses was not real but as Jesus said a vision.
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Luke chapter 16 is a parable or illustration for the Pharisees of verse 14 that derided Jesus.

that is your interpitation. Jesus never used real names or false ideas in parables. Either way, Jesus spoke of a spiritual existance after death in the flesh.

Jesus said to John, James and Peter at Matthew 17v9 clearly to tell the 'vision' to no man.

The word "Vission" also means "plain sight" or "View". Jesus may have been saying, "Dont tell anyone what you have seen until later". If the disiples knew this was only a vission(Not Real), then why did they want to make tents for them? Verse 3 says, "there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." The deffinition of the word vission you are seeking is, "a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision". They were not asleep and no sign of ecstasy. Other books record this event and agree with my understanding.

Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

First off, the word Vission could simply mean "That which is seen".
Second, The other books(Mark & Luke) agree that this really happend and that they saw this with their eyes as plain sight.
Third, Even if this was a sight divinely granted (Special Vission). No where are we told Vissions of specialy granted favor cannot be real. Maybe God granted them the special vission to see spirit beings that normaly cannot be seen. But no where are vissions said to be only unreal events that didnt happen. Take the Stoning of Stephen for example, before he died he looked up and saw Jesus and His Father. Normaly this cant happen, but he was granted a special vission and that vission was a real event that was Really happening.

Either way you want to look at it, I find it hard that Jesus would use "False" ideas to potray something, dont you?

In Love,
Tom
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Matthew [17v9 B] Jesus charged them saying, Tell the 'vision' to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Is Acts 9v10 also not a vision?

Is Acts 10vs3,17 also not a vision?

Is Acts 11v5 also not a vision?

Is Acts 16v9 also not a vision?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
:biglaugh:I'm just going to crack up if everybody "wakes up" to find themselves in a realm that is exactly as the Mormons have described it! :biglaugh:
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
URMVP2Me,
i have a question I would like to see your answer. Read these verses

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Spirits in Prison - Who do you say these people are?

In Love,
tom
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
:biglaugh:I'm just going to crack up if everybody "wakes up" to find themselves in a realm that is exactly as the Mormons have described it! :biglaugh:
Oh, Kathryn, I have been laughing for a rather long time now. It's all good. :)
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
urmvp2me said:
Is Acts 9v10 also not a vision?

A vision is a sight divinely granted. This doesnt mean is was "Fake, not real, didnt happen, a dream, smoke and mirrors , or what ever you are thinking to say it didnt really happen". A vision is a Sight Divinely granted and can be as real as Paul seeing Jesus on the road to Dimaskas or Stephen looking up in the sky and seeing Jesus or Moses seeing a burning bush. Just because you see the word Vision, doesnt mean it didnt really happen. Acts 9v10 is no different.

Is Acts 10vs3,17 also not a vision?

An angel realy did apear to talk to Cornelius. Hence, a vision of sight divinely granted.

Is Acts 11v5 also not a vision?

Clearly says Peter was in a "TRANCE" and is exactly the kind of vision you are thinking of. A vision granted through sleep or a trance. (Dream like)

Is Acts 16v9 also not a vision?

It seems to me that God Granted Paul a vision of seeing a man Pleading for Paul to visit. Looks to me that Paul got to see a real event of a man pleading for Paul to visit (like a crystal ball)

As far as Moses Apearing to Jesus and Peter, there are 2 other books that record this as a real event and something they really did see. They were not alseep or in a trance (Dream state if you will) The whole reason you fight this meaning is because your belief doesnt allow for a Spiritual existance after death, that is why I asked the question regauding 1 Peter 3:19

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Who are these "Spirits in Prison?"

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

In Love,
tom
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
RE: "Who are these "Spirits in Prison"?

As 1st Peter 3v18 says about the resurrected Jesus that after his death Jesus was made alive or resurrected in the Spirit [1st Cor 15v45].
So 'before' ascending to heaven, the resurrected Jesus went to the spirits in prison [v19]. Verse 20 mentions these are the same 'spirits' that were disobedient in Noah's day.
Peter continues [2Peter 2vs4,5] calling those 'spirits' as angels that sinned [fallen angels]. See also Jude verse 6.

By appearing to those disobedient fallen angels they could see Jesus died faithful and God resurrected him and they now knew 'tartaroo' awaited them. [Jude 6]
KJV says 'hell' at 2 Peter 2v4 instead of tartarus or the Greek word tartaoo which is not the word haides or sheol which has been translated as hell [the Biblical common grave].
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
urmvp2me said:
Peter continues [2Peter 2vs4,5] calling those 'spirits' as angels that sinned [fallen angels]. See also Jude verse 6.

i was reading the NWT and it reads, talking of the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:20 - "who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days." Who was God having Patience for? Angels or Men? Lets continue to read

1Pe 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached even to those who have died--so that although their bodies were punished with death, they could still live in the spirit as God does.

1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 Peter 4:6 clearly says the Good News was preached to those that died in the flesh. These cannot be angels, who are they? Clearly there are "Spirits in Prison" that died in the flesh and where preached the Good News by Jesus and are able to be saved. Who do you say these people are? i say they are the People in Jesus's story in Luke 16. (The Rich man and Lazarus)

Anyway you want to look at it, 1 Peter 4:6 says the Good news was preached to those that died and where now spirits in prison. Dont you believe Dead equals non-existant? How can this be if those that died in the Flesh are being Preached the Good News according to 1 Peter 4:6? (These cannot be angels as you say)

i have read 2 peter and context is showing us that God didnt save the angels who sinned nor Humans that sin nor Sodom and Gomorrah, so stay pure and God will save us like Lot. i dont make the same connections that you do and 1 Peter 4:6 cannot be ignored.

in love,
Tom
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
i was reading the NWT and it reads, talking of the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:20 - "who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days." Who was God having Patience for? Angels or Men? Lets continue to read
1Pe 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached even to those who have died--so that although their bodies were punished with death, they could still live in the spirit as God does.
1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1 Peter 4:6 clearly says the Good News was preached to those that died in the flesh. These cannot be angels, who are they? Clearly there are "Spirits in Prison" that died in the flesh and where preached the Good News by Jesus and are able to be saved. Who do you say these people are? i say they are the People in Jesus's story in Luke 16. (The Rich man and Lazarus)
Anyway you want to look at it, 1 Peter 4:6 says the Good news was preached to those that died and where now spirits in prison. Dont you believe Dead equals non-existant? How can this be if those that died in the Flesh are being Preached the Good News according to 1 Peter 4:6? (These cannot be angels as you say)
i have read 2 peter and context is showing us that God didnt save the angels who sinned nor Humans that sin nor Sodom and Gomorrah, so stay pure and God will save us like Lot. i dont make the same connections that you do and 1 Peter 4:6 cannot be ignored.
in love,
Tom

Weren't we discussing 1st Peter chapter three?
What you mention is now being discussed in chapter four.
In both verses five and six Peter mentions 'dead' in chapter four.
Where are the 'spirits' of chapter three mentioned as: dead?
Please consider the context of chapter four because Peter is dealing with people [not spirits] living people who were 'spiritually' dead before they heard the good news of God kingdom. After putting faith in God's kingdom those living people became 'spiritually' alive.

The 'dead' are the same dead Jesus mentions at Matthew 8v22 and
Paul mentions at Ephesians 2v1 equating dead in trespasses and sins.

'People' are being discussed by Peter in chapter four, whereas in chapter three the 'spirits in prison' [not grave vs19,20] are the spirits that were disobedient in 'Noah's day'. [ Jude 6; 2Pt2vs4,5]
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
urmvp2me said:
Weren't we discussing 1st Peter chapter three?

Yes, you jumped around to other books, i just kept reading into the next chapter and the context is the same.

What you mention is now being discussed in chapter four.

Again, You jumped around by posting [1st Cor 15v45],[Jude 6]. i just kept reading into the next chapter. by the way, Chapters didnt exist when Peter wrote this.

Where are the 'spirits' of chapter three mentioned as: dead?

Thats where our understandings are completely different. i believe when one dies their spirit leaves to be with God, and the evil ones to the place Jesus talks about for the rich man at Luke 16.

Please consider the context of chapter four because Peter is dealing with people [not spirits] living people who were 'spiritually' dead before they heard the good news of God kingdom.

If you want to take that stand, then you must also remember this when you read

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Peter was the same writer and wrote

1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

After putting faith in God's kingdom those living people became 'spiritually' alive.

Then could it be said that Jesus was made 'spiritually' alive as well? I say this because many JW will read this same book at 1 Peter 3:18 and insist that Jesus is a spirit only and not 'spiritually' alive as you say. (Same book and chapter)

However, I would like to return to the original passage

1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1 Peter 3:20 - "who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days.

Who was God having Patience for? Angels or Men? The whole Purpose of the flood was to wipe out evil men.

1 Peter 4:1 starts off as "Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh", connecting 1 peter chapter 3 with chapter 4. If you keep reading it flows together and the same topic is being talked about.

'People' are being discussed by Peter in chapter four, whereas in chapter three the 'spirits in prison' [not grave vs19,20] are the spirits that were disobedient in 'Noah's day'.

Let me give you a window into my belief for a second. Lets say Jesus's story was real in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the Rich man. These people exist in a spiritual state for the bible says when they died, they were carried off into another place. I see the rich man as one of the "Spirits in prison" as you say are angels. My whole point is that there is no reason for Angels to be preached to by Jesus and the Flood was not sent to wipe out evil angels. Even your own explaination opens a window of error for your own belief at 1 Peter 3:18 where you say 'spiritually' alive and force Jesus as a Spirit being with no Physical body.(his reserected body)

However you look at it you still need to re-think your understanding of "Spirits in Prision" (which opens the door for Hell fire 1pet 3:19) and who they are because of God waiting patiently while Noah was building his boat. Who did God wait patiently for? Angels or Men (please answer) The next sentence answers the question because only 8 people where saved.

therefore it is highly possible that the "Spirit in Prison" are those in Jesus's Story in Luke 16, and that explains why they are Dead and are spirits just as Lazarus had died and was carried off. How do you supose Lazarus existed in Jesus's story if he was dead? (Just trying to tie you into my belief)

In Love,
tom
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The story of Luke chapter 16 is an illustration.
As Matthew 13v34 says Jesus would Not speak to the people without a parable or illustration.
Who is the un-named rich man of Luke 16v19?
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
The story of Luke chapter 16 is an illustration.

All of Jesus's illustrations are of something true and could happen. Jesus doesnt use false ideas in his illustrations. Jesus used words that clearly show that when one dies in the flesh that he is carried off to another location in the "Spirit/soul" state of existance. Paul also explains to die is gain for he will be with jesus. Stephen calls out to Jesus to recieve his spirit. When Jesus dies he says to the Father, "into your hands I commit my spirit". 1 Thes 4:14 says Jesus will be bringing these Spirit/souls of those who have died with him. Luke 20:38 says God is the God of the living. Paul says to be absent from the body in death is to be home with Jesus. Matt 10:28 says dont be afraid of those that can kill the body but not the soul. Jesus tells the thief that today they would be in paradise(at death).

Since Jesus always used real life situations to illustrate His teachings, what does this tell you about his words in Luke 16?

With that in mind, you can write them all off because of 2 scriptures that say the dead know nothing and are talking in a humanistic view of how they see things and not from Gods view.

In Love,
tom
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Luke 16 starting with verse 14 shows the Pharisees heard Jesus and derided him.
Verse 15 shows Jesus is addressing the Pharisees.
They did not want to accept verse 16 that the law was until John.
Under the law [verse 18] to put away 'Christ's bride' wife [Rev21v2]and marry another was wrong. New Jerusalem was now not earthly but heavenly [Rev 3v12; Gal 4v26].
Death would end the covenant. Jesus death would end the old law covenant and allow for the new covenant.[Rom 7vs2-6]. So to become Christ's bride one must be released from the old law covenant by the death of that covenant.

Those religious Pharisees were not willing to become Christ's bride, so to speak, so they were in torment by Jesus message. They wanted to stand on their five brothers [Abraham, Moses and the prophets] as their religious allies against Jesus.
Jesus set them straight that even if raised from the dead they would not be persuaded otherwise. After all they had the greatest teacher standing right in front of them and would not listen to Jesus.

Also we know Lazarus was a common name in Jesus day.
Jesus friend Lazarus of John chapter eleven lived with his sisters Mary and Martha.
He was not a homeless beggar that did not have a burial plot, but a respected member of the community.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The principle of Matthew 18v6 is that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established. So out of the mouth [pen] of two or three Bible writers a thing is established.

1] Ecclesiastes 9v5 the dead know not anything.
2] Psalm 6v5 there is no remembrance in death
3] Psalm 13v3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
4] Psalm 115v17 the dead do Not praise God
5] Psalm 146v4 at death thoughts [thinking] perishes
6] Job 14vs10-15 Job kept in secret in the grave until a set time [resurrection]
7] Daniel 12vs2,13 the dead sleep;Daniel would awaken [resurrected] at the end of days.
8] John 11vs11,14,17,24 Jesus likens death to sleep. Martha believes death is sleep.
also, John 6vs39,40,44,54 resurrection at the last day or Jesus 1000-year day not before.

Don't the sleeping dead know nothing in all the above verses?
 
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