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Female Muslims... please explain

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Paul Rusco said:
So........ denying Women equal rights and denying the permission for a Man to beat a Woman makes a lesser society? Please explain how you think it makes a better society?

This is where the deception starts doesn't it? You equate not being the authority in the house with not having equal rights. This is purely your own misplaced claim and does not accurately reflect what Islam teaches in the slightest.

The simple fact is that any societal structure will only ever function properly when it has a clear chain of command/authority. You can ramble on all you like about utopian views of how you think families oughta function, but at the end of the day it leads to nothing but the breakdown of the family, not the betterment of it.

Paul Rusco said:
I don't believe that's the case - anyone regardless of sex, race, and orientation can oppose mysogyny.

It's only misogyny in your very small mind.

Paul Rusco said:
Perhaps you should do a poll for the Muslim Women here as to whether or not they support the idea of being physically punished by the Husband

Since it doesn't interest me, I don't think so. Perhaps you should? Since it seems to be one of your prime focuses here?

My guess is few, if any, would participate, because as usual you'd sensationalise it with all your inaccurate and loaded claims about the issue, due to your complete inability to separate mere discipline from abuse.

Paul Rusco said:
I've heard of this "outlook" before by other Muslim Men: that Western Men "wouldn't give a Woman the time of day unless she flashes you some flesh". LOL!

Of course, we see nothing wrong with mysogyny, all we care about is whether or not they're showing bewbs!

It's simple fact. And it's quite sad, because the few good points people such as yourself raise end up getting lost with all the deviant nonsense. Muslim women are the biggest opponents to people such as yourself, since you merely wish to market their "assets", and they know it. Your aim is to turn them into the objectified pieces of meat you call the "Liberated Western Woman".

Paul Rusco said:
Me said:
That's good, and that's the way it should be, and the way it is in my household...
Nice to know you support hitting Women, very manly of you.

Huh?
 

GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
That's good, and that's the way it should be, and the way it is in my household. Unfortunately there could arise a case where a woman is not going to accept working issues out with words alone, and it could require sterner action. Islam allows for that, that's all.

And domestic violence laws allow for her to throw you in jail, be notified of when you're released, for her to receive a no contact order until your court date, and for her to file an ex parte protection order which states that if you so much as email her or write her a note on her car window when it's fogged up, you'll be arrested immediately.

Good luck with that.

What about the reverse? If the woman is attempting to work out an issue rationally and words alone aren't cutting it, can she pick up a frying pan and bang him in the head with it until he agrees with her?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Abu Rashid said:
This is where the deception starts doesn't it? You equate not being the authority in the house with not having equal rights. This is purely your own misplaced claim and does not accurately reflect what Islam teaches in the slightest.

Hold on, I'm talking about your opinion. I'm not even gonna attempt to argue "what Islam" prescribes, but instead your own veiw. You are clearly using the lame and tired "Men and Women, they don't have equal rights, they both have distinctive special rights given by God!" argument, I've heard it before. It is evident in some of your previous posts that you detest the idea of Women and Men "sharing authoirty". Deny it all you want but at the end of the day it's as clear as day.

The simple fact is that any societal structure will only ever function properly when it has a clear chain of command/authority. You can ramble on all you like about utopian views of how you think families oughta function, but at the end of the day it leads to nothing but the breakdown of the family, not the betterment of it.

You talk as if your opinion is well-documented fact, odd. Although my immediate reaction would've been "sources please" I'm not even gonna bother because it's an impossible claim to make anyways.

It's only misogyny in your very small mind.

It's funny how it's "discipline" if done on the Woman but the moment it turns the other way, suddenly you've got a big problem about it. What was it you said before when prompted about a Wife "disciplining" the Husband in the exact same circumstances? Oh yeah:

"No of course not! Just as children don't have a right to disclipine their parents either. There is a clearly established structure of authority in the family according to Islam (as there oughta be)."

You are being totally one-sided here.


My guess is few, if any, would participate, because as usual you'd sensationalise it with all your inaccurate and loaded claims about the issue, due to your complete inability to separate mere discipline from abuse.

Heh, that's funny. As stated before, it makes me laugh how you believe if a Man hits the Woman it's "discipline" but if it's turned the other way around it's totally unaccpetable. It seems your criteria for what constitutes as "discipline" and "unnacceptable" depend purely on whether the recipient/giver is a Man or a Woman.

It's simple fact.

Wrong, it is simply your opinion. Atleast have the decency to admit that, rather than trying to pass off your opinions as facts.

And it's quite sad, because the few good points people such as yourself raise end up getting lost with all the deviant nonsense. Muslim women are the biggest opponents to people such as yourself, since you merely wish to market their "assets", and they know it. Your aim is to turn them into the objectified pieces of meat you call the "Liberated Western Woman".

Hahaha! There we go again! Total prejudice stereotyping. You talk about me chatting nonesense and misrepresenting everything, yet here you are doing this! But hey, if innaccurately labelling me as some sort of drunken sex-obsessed filthy Westerner makes you feel morally superior, then go ahead. It'll just make you look more prejudice and your ignorant stereotyping mentality will simply become more and more obvious






You're clearly supporting the use of physical violence to "discipline" a Woman. Thus, I think, you're a total coward if you think it's acceptable. Plenty of Women across the World are victims of domestic abuse from thier Husbands/Boyfriends, the last thing anybody needs is some guy with a "holyier than thou" mentality to try and pass it off not only as acceptable, but sanctioned by God!
 

*Anne*

Bliss Ninny
I just want to thank the men in this thread who have stated their opposition to hitting women. While I suspect arguing with Abu on this matter won't do much to change his thoughts, I personally appreciate hearing your voices.
 

301ouncer

Well-Known Member
I never had ever laid an inch on my english muslim reverted wife. If anything she lost her temp once or twice when we both were secular and she launched at me. All I did is run out of her way. LOL.

mind you we are now together since the age of 17. So not bad for a 23 year marriage.

When we both started practise the only roaring now I do is because of some secular outside person or force tried to disrespect my family.

Our Messenger Muhammed pbuh never laid a finger on any wife of his s.a.w. The worst beating you are allowed in islam to do is nudge a woman with a 8 inch piece of wood.

After that if any party is still not happy then simply divorce. End of.

Compare that to the blue and red of secular woman wife/girlefriend beating in secular socities. Nothing in comparison. An ant to an elephant.
 
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MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Should this be the rule for women? Raising kids and having two jobs? Overburdening the woman like this should be an exception and not a rule. Irresponsible husbands and fathers should be exceptions.


Rule?

No I think what I'm trying to say is men are not all that perfect and women aren't all that childish.

If anything I believe my mom, a woman, was very smart...smarter than my dad. Should he have been some "authority" figure, well I think we would have been in trouble.

I have seen this kind of stuff among idiotic so-called christian men. I had a friend who's dad was jailed for murdering his wife. He told me a lot about their dad, believing it was man's duty to rule the house and the women and childrens' duty to obey that man of the household, well you see what happened here. This may not happen to every woman who's lucky not to have a husband this vile but I believe a man using this to imply himself not only as authority figure but to use as an excuse to "discipline" his wife is just a disaster waiting to happen.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Just for the record, if a couple wants to set up their marriage on this kind of hierarchy, and if there are any sort of disciplining between them.....I'm ok with it as long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse, though, where the discipline could be considered criminal.

MY problem with all this is that it's codefied and handed toward every single couple out there packaged as "God's Design." Steve and I could never follow that arbitrarily, despite the fact that he leads in our house in a lot of ways, but there are more than a few ways where *I* take the lead, too.

And there are certain disciplinary measures I take with him, but you know - that's between me and him and this thread isn't the place to delve into the details. But - just saying - he's more than willing. ;)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
If you ask me, since, according to this system which is mirrored in many patriarchal cultures, where the man does things out of the house and the woman does things in the house, the wife should be the head of the household, since it's her domain.

Then again, I believe that couples can use whatever system of marriage they wish, as long as it doesn't break the laws of the country they live in.
 
The problem I see here is not just wife beating, but that, since Islam was created by a man, Islam is inherently a system of patriarchy. And the problem with patriarchy is that it stratifies gender roles and gives men excessive power to control those roles, often times with force. For example - a Saudi cleric once said that all those who oppose modernization of gender roles should be murdered in cold blood.

In order to demystify patriarchy as a system of power and its use by particular economic modes, one needs to understand that patriarchy is a relatively autonomous system operating alongside the economic mode of society rather than simply derived from it. Neither is the mere instrument of the other, yet they are completely intertwined. In the transition from feudalism to capitalism, patriarchy changed in relation to the economic changes, but it also set the limits and structure of this change. Patriarchy alters itself in order to preserve itself, and these changes reflect real political struggles. This conception of patriarchy focuses on it s as a dynamically changing political system rather than a static one. the changes and processes one sees are part of the system of patriarchy and actually define it. They express its historical formulation. Patriarchy is no longer protected through a repressive legal system structured around the male as father as it once was. The redefinition of the father's power speaks to the changing nature of patriarchy, not to its erosion. These changes signal the presence of new modes of patriarchal control, the loss of former methods of control, and the modernization of patriarchal law. Women's struggles against patriarchal domination have been a part of this process, as we shall see.

What is therefore required is that the use of neocultural conceptualism as a challenge to the false sexual identities imposed by capitalist-patriarchal society.

Someone needs to stand up to people who threaten violence or refuse to abide by modern rules. Someone should stand up to backward "right-wing" religious fundamentalists who come into the West and think that homoseuxals should be tortured and killed, and who think that women must gain their husband's or father's permission to go out for the most basic of things like seeing a doctor for treatment. These people believe that women who show their faces are "whores" and are "asking for it," and that this justifies rape. They think that "offensive" cartoons drawn of a supposed "prophet" of a certain religion (I'll let you guess that one) should be condemned by all, and that the freedom to draw such cartoons should not be available. These are the same people of the same religion who will not condemn with the same tenacity the heartless and cruel practice of the "honor killing" of women and girls.

I truly contend that we should show principle, gumption, verve, and nerve to oppose Islam as a threat not only to the Western liberal way of life in general, but also to the women's liberation movement all over the world!
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I just want to thank the men in this thread who have stated their opposition to hitting women. While I suspect arguing with Abu on this matter won't do much to change his thoughts, I personally appreciate hearing your voices.

Hitting women (in the name of religion, or otherwise) reveals a serious character flaw, and some deep insecurity in a persons manhood. To see someone try to defend the act is sad. Just sad.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Compare that to the blue and red of secular woman wife/girlefriend beating in secular socities. Nothing in comparison. An ant to an elephant.
Would it be too much to ask, for you to come up with a new analogy? The "ant to an elephant" thing is getting way overworked.

You know - something like "a car to a bus", or "a bird to a plane". Put some thought into it. God knows it isn't like you're wasting time putting any thought into the bulk of your posts.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
If you ask me, since, according to this system which is mirrored in many patriarchal cultures, where the man does things out of the house and the woman does things in the house, the wife should be the head of the household, since it's her domain.

Then again, I believe that couples can use whatever system of marriage they wish, as long as it doesn't break the laws of the country they live in.

Actually, there are quite a few "traditional" families that practice what you propose. The way they see it, Husband works hard and makes the money outside the home, hands over the funds and the decision-making to Wife when he comes home, and Wife works hard to use those funds to feed, care for, and nurture the family as a steward and a homemaker.

I know this because Steve and I did this for years. We found ourselves accountable to each other. Now that I've been working and continue to work more, we've been re-negotiating our household expectations.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
It's simple fact. And it's quite sad, because the few good points people such as yourself raise end up getting lost with all the deviant nonsense. Muslim women are the biggest opponents to people such as yourself, since you merely wish to market their "assets", and they know it. Your aim is to turn them into the objectified pieces of meat you call the "Liberated Western Woman".
If this what you think the men who disagree with you on this matter are like :areyoucra?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
If this what you think the men who disagree with you on this matter are like :areyoucra?

Sure looks like it, doesn't it?

Oh, and you know, one doesn't have to be in the presence of a naked woman in order to effectively objectify her and see her as a piece of meat.

All you have to do is take away her voice, her autonomy, and take it upon yourself to decide what is best for her instead of her. Presto! You have successfully objectified and de-humanized a woman! :clap
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Kerr,

I know it to be the case. I have grown up in a Western society as a Westerner and observed how men in such societies view women. Whilst they feign sincerity for their well-being, in fact it's all a ploy to enslave them to their desires.

This doesn't need to be the motive of each and every individual in each and every case, but it's the basic sentiment that is behind most such actions, even if it's not always consciously chosen. Otherwise it would not concern any Western man one little bit how much women cover themselves.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Kerr,

I know it to be the case. I have grown up in a Western society as a Westerner and observed how men in such societies view women. Whilst they feign sincerity for their well-being, in fact it's all a ploy to enslave them to their desires.

This doesn't need to be the motive of each and every individual in each and every case, but it's the basic sentiment that is behind most such actions, even if it's not always consciously chosen. Otherwise it would not concern any Western man one little bit how much women cover themselves.
I don´t know anything about your life and how you grew up, but my experience in the matter states something else. We are not just people obsessed with desire who want to look at naked skin.
 

*Anne*

Bliss Ninny
I know it to be the case. I have grown up in a Western society as a Westerner and observed how men in such societies view women. Whilst they feign sincerity for their well-being, in fact it's all a ploy to enslave them to their desires.
Then you hung out with some pretty twisted men.

Otherwise it would not concern any Western man one little bit how much women cover themselves.
Are you referring to the banning of burqas?
 
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