Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

[continued from last post]



Yes [but kurios doesnt mean god] Jesus and the Father are not the same “entity”. Most of Christianity and the world don’t recognize this. They think of a 3 in 1 trinity or think that Jehovah was God the Father. Sorry that’s not me. Jehovah Elohim/Lord God is/was Jesus.

It doesn’t matter what “kurios” can mean cus it means what it means as in “the kurios theos”—Lord God. “You shall love the Lord [kurios] God [theos]….” Versus “You shall love the Lord [Jehovah] God [Elohim]….” Jesus came to unfold/reveal the Father not Himself.


Actually He is referring to Himself and the Father. To worship Him you worship the Father. Jesus Himself says this. They are one, not the same “entity”, but one in spirit.


So lets see. Jesus can do all that His Father/God can do and tempting Him is like tempting God, yet Jesus is not God? Pretty weird if ya ask me. The problem is people think God is the name of the Father. The word God is like a title. Jesus is called God. Satan is called a god. Ba’al [no pun intended] was called a god and as Paul even stated

1 Corinthians 8: 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is {but} one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we {exist} through Him.

Jesus is our God because from His Father/God all power in heaven and earth was given to Him so it is as you say “tempting him is like trying to tempt God”.


You didn’t see the connection in the earlier post?! Jesus referred or called Himself Lord as in Matt 7:21-22 and to connect it with verses like Matt 4:10 you should see the obvious. In any other form of literature people would make and see the connection but since its in the bible no one wants to see it.


In verse 8, again, it is just “I AM” not “I am he”. Jesus confirms being a Nazarene and also He confirms who He is by saying “I AM” not “I am he”. He does both not just one. That’s taking away from scripture to say He is only talking about being a Nazarene. Was it just a coincidence that Jesus asked them a second time who they were looking for? Was it just a coincidence or some sort of earthquake that happened only to those looking for Him that they fell backwards precisely when He said “I AM”? Do you think they didn’t hear Him the first time? Come now, the evidence is right there.

Oh and those verses just further proves my point. Jesus says He is the bread of life, good shepard, true vine. He has all power given to Him to be like a God because His Father gave Him this to make Him a God thus you have this verse when translated right to further confirm Jesus being made a God
Joh 1:18 - No man hath seen (5758) God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is (5752) in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared (5662) him.


Son is not translated right. The greek word is theos and It should be “the only begotten God”. How about further proof. Jesus says and quotes the prophets “they shall all be taught of God” and then states “Everyone who has HEARD and learn from the Father…not that anyone has seen the Father” and Jesus also stated “no man has seen or HEARD His voice at anytime”. So put it together you have Jesus saying those who are hearing from the Father [Jesus is a father (see Isa 45)] coming to Him. Jesus is not saying He is THE Father but a father. No one can hear the Father, but Jesus as the spokesman for God we can hear. He is our father and creator. The Father through Jesus created us. Hence they both are fathers.




Right and you and those jews agree that Jesus didn’t give a blasphemous answer. So when Jesus says He is Lord as in “many will say to ME Lord, Lord” and then quotes “shall love the Lord thy God” He is saying He is the Lord your God.


Yeah but that would be too easy and that’s just not how God works. Jesus could of saved those people back then too, but that’s not what He wanted to do at that time see John 12:37-41 and Matt 13:13-15. He purposely spoke in parables and not plain speech so He wouldn’t have to heal them. And this is still happening to this day.



The Gospels are littered with accounts showing the jews [especially the scribes and Pharisees] knew Jesus was the Christ, Teacher, Master, “Good Master”, “from God”. Just open up one of the gospels and see for yourself these statements. Everyone knows they crucified Him to try to keep their own power.

Jesus says and quotes the prophets “they shall all be taught of God” and then states “Everyone who has HEARD and learn from the Father…not that anyone has seen the Father” and Jesus also stated “no man has seen or HEARD His voice at anytime”. Let me add to this one too. Notice Jesus says to satan

Matt 4; 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "

Now Jesus later tells everyone that no one can see or hear God at anytime, yet Jesus is saying here that actual words come out from (a) God. So in otherwords it is coming from Him the Spokesman for His God [the Father]. Yes Jesus has a God.

I would give a response...considering some of the the stuff you're responding to looks like some of my postings...but I've become bored with the circular reasoning........:bow:

 

[Bob.H]

Hi,
I have only just joined this forum and have not yet read much of what was posted here but it is easy to see from the last post that the common story is repeated here, "because Jesus talked to God, He can't be God".
This part of the argument is mote as we read that Christ on earth was all human not a god or God. If He was not truly a man he could not be our ultimate sacrifice and die for all our sins. God or a god can not die, so Jesus was not a god or God while He was on earth.
The bible clearly tells us that Christ was there in the beginning of creation with God and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Christ was before he was born to Mary, died and rose again and now still is.

 

[Ba'al]

I suggest you read this thread from the beginning before sounding anymore like a fool. Welcome to RF!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Bob.H-

Yes, Christ was there in the beginning of all creation. However, Christ was Not before the beginning of creation. Creator or God according from Psalm 90:2 is from everlasting to everlasting. Meaning God had no beginning. That means God was before the beginning. Only God alone was before the beginning.

Decades after Jesus was resurrected to heaven by God at Revelation 2:18 Jesus still refers to himself, not as God, but as the Son of God.
Jesus, while on earth, believed he had a God according to John 20:17 B.
After God resurrected Jesus to heaven, Jesus still believed he had a God.- Rev 3:12.

Jesus also believes he was the beginning of the creation by God at Rev 3:14 B.

God as Creator was never born, but at Colossians 1:15,16 Jesus is called God's firstborn in the heavens.
All angels are 'sons of God' but Jesus is unique in that he is not only God's firstborn in the heavens he is God's only-begotten Son in the heavens because all other creation in heaven came through Jesus. Jesus then would be God's only direct creation with all other creation visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, being made through Jesus.

Jesus as God's only-begotten heavenly Son, and his firstborn in the heavens, the beginning of God's creation is the Son that God sent to earth to be a ransom or corresponding ransom for earthly Adam son of God. -Luke 3:38.

 

[Katzpur]

I suggest you read this thread from the beginning before sounding anymore like a fool. Welcome to RF!

Jeesh! That was a nice welcome.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus as God's only-begotten heavenly Son, and his firstborn in the heavens, the beginning of God's creation is the Son that God sent to earth to be a ransom or corresponding ransom for earthly Adam son of God. -Luke 3:38.

I agree with most of what you have said, but I'm curious about this statement. If Jesus was "firstborn in the heavens" (as I agree, He was), that would imply that there were others in the heavens, aside from God himself, of course. If there is a "firstborn," can we not assume that there was a second-born, a third-born and so on? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree with most of what you have said, but I'm curious about this statement. If Jesus was "firstborn in the heavens" (as I agree, He was), that would imply that there were others in the heavens, aside from God himself, of course. If there is a "firstborn," can we not assume that there was a second-born, a third-born and so on? What are your thoughts on this?

Good question. 'Firstborn' is more than just like a parent having one child , then another, then another and so forth. 'Firstborn' is in the sense that as an only-begotten Son there would Not be a second only- begotten and so forth.

But there were other sons, angelic sons. that were created through the only- begotten Son. See Colossians 1:15,16. Plus all earthly sons, so to speak, were made through the only-begotten Son.

One person said to me it was kind of like a family business. Father&Son.
Their business was creating things. The Father was not created but as the word father indicates is 'Life Giver' . So the Father gave life to his only Son that was created without the aid of anyone else besides the Father. Whereas the rest of the family business included the Son as part of the creating process.

 

[Katzpur]

Good question. 'Firstborn' is more than just like a parent having one child , then another, then another and so forth. 'Firstborn' is in the sense that as an only-begotten Son there would Not be a second only- begotten and so forth.

I can go along with that.

But there were other sons, angelic sons. that were created through the only- begotten Son. See Colossians 1:15,16.

And who do you believe these were?

One person said to me it was kind of like a family business. Father&Son.
Their business was creating things. The Father was not created but as the word father indicates is 'Life Giver' . So the Father gave life to his only Son that was created without the aid of anyone else besides the Father. Whereas the rest of the family business included the Son as part of the creating process.

That's an interesting perspective. I'd explore it further, except that it would kind of be taking us off-topic.

 

[AK4]

Quote:baal
The word "lord" is used loosely. It is a translation of one of many things. You are picking and choosing which "lord" is to mean God.

No “Lord” [with a capitol “L”] was not used loosely when referring to Jesus. Show me where I am picking and choosing to make “Lord” to fit “my ideal” that doesn’t fit in the Gospels.

If Jesus meant "love me, because I am Yahweh" he most certainly would have said it because Jesus at times got frustrated at his diciples of their misunderstandings.

That logic is not scriptural. And to back this up, as proof, if Jesus meant for everyone to plainly understand His message He wouldn’t have “ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables and without a parable He didn’t speak to them”. Now if Jesus knows He came to save the world, why in world would He ONLY speak in parables to the multitudes? Why wouldn’t He “most certainly would have said” what He really meant to everyone? Because that’s not part of His and His Fathers plan. So Again your logic doesn’t stand scripturally.

Quote:
Jews didn't believe in more than 1 god, and no, they didn't beieve Jesus was god. There were many people and false prophets doing miracles(magic). It was not a sign of being God. It did not even occur to them

.

Again unscriptural argument. It was a sign because the things that Jesus did were more numerous and some unique to only Him [rather recorded or not] and besides heres Jesus’ own words

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out {to be} God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Now you in verse 33 the jews and their lack of belief in God show that they don’t believe God can make mankind into gods [or to make it more plainer they just don’t believe their God]. Verse 34 shows Jesus exposes their lack of belief in Gods words “I SAID YOU ARE GODS”. Now if Jesus is to be our Christ/Messiah/our example of how to become “gods”, well the math shouldn’t be that hard now to figure out what He is saying.

BTW verse 38 was to let them know that all that He was saying is true and if you don’t believe just take His word for it and works where further proof.

You know it amazes me because some of you people look to the jews to see how to worship God and know the truth and yet heres a passage that proves they didn’t know how to worship and know God. As Jesus said “the blind leading the blind”.

Quote:
Jesus could not do all the father could do. God did miracles through Jesus. Jesus says in John (11:41)
Jesus acknowledging that his father heard him confirms Jesus' power came from God. And, thanked God aloud so the people would believe God sent Jesus, NOT that people would believe he is God.

Uhh everything comes from God. Noone including Jesus can generate it on their own. That’s what Jesus came to unfold, the Father. As I type, it is the Father in me working through me also. Same for Jesus except for Jesus all power was given to Him.

Quote:
Jesus didn't directly say he was God becasuse Jesus didn't beleive he was. Why would Jesus be afraid of getting stoned if he was God?

First off I doubt He was afraid He would have been stoned because He already knew what type of death He was to suffer, so that’s a no brainer. Jesus knew He was the Father, but He knew that He was our Lord God.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Does it get any plainer than this? Is this not Jesus saying who He is?

God did not create everything through Jesus.

Still unscriptural

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

It says that nowhere in the Torah.

See the problem is you think Jehovah or Yahweh isn’t Jesus but God the Father which is not the case. If you can learn to see that they all were Jesus and not God the Father then your response would change. Learn this major truth here and you will start to see it. “no man has seen or heard God [the Father] at anytime”, but see there are some in the OT that had seen God, not the Father but Jesus/Jehovah/Yahweh.

AK4, Christianity was never a unified religion, especially before the 4rth century. There were christians that believed many different things. The doctrine that Jesus was God was an early christian teaching of a church that had theological and political agendas. When Constantine became emperor in the 4rth century he adopted orthadox christainity and basically tried to eliminate all other forms and teachings of christianity. The fact that the Jesus/God doctrine happened to be on the winning side does not mean it's correct, in fact, because that church was so cruel and corrupt it's all the more reason to question it.

Okay it seems you are stumped the same way the Pharisees were back then when Jesus was also telling them [remember in parables] He was the Lord God. See if you can answer what they couldn’t answer. Im curious to see your answer if you can answer it

Matthew 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They *said to Him, "{The son} of David." 43 He *said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET'"? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"

I can answer it lets see if you can or will it be--- 46 No one was able to answer Him a word…

 

[AK4]

I would give a response...considering some of the the stuff you're responding to looks like some of my postings...but I've become bored with the circular reasoning........:bow:

I havent read through this thread so i have no clue what anyone else has said, but youre right, its like no amount of proof you show some people just refuse to see. I say it again in any other book of literature that had a person referring to himself so many times as lord or master or whatever in so many different places, people would recognise easily what he was calling himself, but with the bible its a whole other story.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I havent read through this thread so i have no clue what anyone else has said, but youre right, its like no amount of proof you show some people just refuse to see. I say it again in any other book of literature that had a person referring to himself so many times as lord or master or whatever in so many different places, people would recognise easily what he was calling himself, but with the bible its a whole other story.

No it's not. So....the biblical Yeshua called himself "lord". All you have shown is that he called himself "lord". It is without a doubt that he as well as others were called "lord". This was a title that was loosely used for certain people. We see this for the biblical Yeshua as well as biblical rulers (kings). The biblical Yeshua was called "Master" but so were others in your bible. He was called rabbi but so were others. He was regarded as a teacher but so were others. You're inferring a particular high status that was not attributed to him nor did he teach others he was to be regarded as the Most High. Every attempt of others to suggest he was claiming to be he corrected them....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No “Lord” [with a capitol “L”] was not used loosely when referring to Jesus. Show me where I am picking and choosing to make “Lord” to fit “my ideal” that doesn’t fit in the Gospels.

It means nothing...Absolutely nothing......considering the Greek language didn't use upper or lowercase letters. Nor did Aramaic, Hebrew or their sister language (Arabic). It wasn't until bibles were translated into (English) we see uppercase and lowercase lettering.

 

[AK4]

No it's not. So....the biblical Yeshua called himself "lord". All you have shown is that he called himself "lord". It is without a doubt that he as well as others were called "lord". This was a title that was loosely used for certain people. We see this for the biblical Yeshua as well as biblical rulers (kings). The biblical Yeshua was called "Master" but so were others in your bible. He was called rabbi but so were others. He was regarded as a teacher but so were others. You're inferring a particular high status that was not attributed to him nor did he teach others he was to be regarded as the Most High. Every attempt of others to suggest he was claiming to be he corrected them....

Okay that same proof verse "many will say to ME in that day, Lord, Lord....and I will reply I never knew you depart from ME"

Who is the judge in the Judgment Day? God right? Hmm what is Jesus saying right here? Yup you guessed it, He Himself will say to many "I never knew you". God is the Judge/Jesus is the Judge. And oh Jesus didnt correct Thomas when He said "My Lord and My God"

 

[arimoff]

Just because Jesus said I'am Lord it doesn't mean he is one, we don't even know if those who wrote those scriptures ever saw Jesus.

You have to understand that you can't prove Jesus to a Jew by quoting your own scriptures, Quote Jewish books maybe then there can be a quality argument.

Deuteronomy 18

18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.
20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die
21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Deuteronomy 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Torah clearly shows that G-D couldn't have a son because He created these laws, and they go against the fundamental ideas of Christianity. G-D the all knowing can't contradict Him self.

I think these verses are enough to show my point. Please if anybody claiming Jesus was a G-D but don't see any point in this verses please don't reply, it is going to be a round circle again.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Okay that same proof verse "many will say to ME in that day, Lord, Lord....and I will reply I never knew you depart from ME"

Go back and read it without editing it. It actually appears to be a statement directed at Christians of today...considering not other religion on the planet does anything (in the name of Jesus) except Christians. Again, "lord" here is not describing "God". The term (tilte) of "lord" was not exclusive to "God" or "Yeshua"....

Who is the judge in the Judgment Day? God right? Hmm what is Jesus saying right here? Yup you guessed it, He Himself will say to many "I never knew you".

But didn't say he was the Judge either now did it? In fact the biblical Yeshua stated he came not to Judge but to save but if he did judge it was because he would be doing the will of his god.

John 8:15,16 and 18
You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.


John 12:46-50
I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the darkness.


If anyone hears me and doesn't obey me, I am not his judge--for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.


But all who reject me and my message will be judged at the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken.


I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


And I know his instructions lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say!"

Yea, at this point it should be plain to see that the biblical Yeshua was sent by his god to do the will of his god because it was his god that told him what he should say. I mean...the man said it plainly that he had no authority to speak for his god until his god allowed him to speak on his behalf. It sounds more like this Yeshua was more of an ambassador than (God in the flesh). As a matter of biblical fact Yeshua says out right he was sent, (not by his own will), but the will of his god that sent him.

 

[AK4]

Just because Jesus said I'am Lord it doesn't mean he is one, we don't even know if those who wrote those scriptures ever saw Jesus.

You have to understand that you can't prove Jesus to a Jew by quoting your own scriptures, Quote Jewish books maybe then there can be a quality argument.

Deuteronomy 18

18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.
20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die
21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Deuteronomy 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Torah clearly shows that G-D couldn't have a son because He created these laws, and they go against the fundamental ideas of Christianity. G-D the all knowing can't contradict Him self.

I think these verses are enough to show my point. Please if anybody claiming Jesus was a G-D but don't see any point in this verses please don't reply, it is going to be a round circle again.

So i take it you say He [Jesus] ,if He was claiming to be God, would have broken one of these verses? Okay so lets go through them together

Deuteronomy 18

18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him

Comment: Jesus didnt break this

19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.

Comment: Jesus taught this "until you pay the utter most farthing"

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die

Comment: Jesus spoke of the only one true God--the Father

21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Comment: Did what Jesus prophecy about the temple come to pass? Yup. Did Jesus speak of His rising from the dead and it come to pass? Yup--His disciples were witnesses as were 500 others plus Paul. Has everything He prophecied come to pass? Not yet for the world, but for His elect yup it has and is happening to them then and now [Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ IN YOU and is not about what you here these christians out there false prophecing].

Deuteronomy 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Comment: Jesus never added or subtracted anything. He taught how to apply it spiritually. Oh and if you want to use some of the stuff He said in the Sermon on the Mount read those words carefully and do the research and see that He didnt contradict anything [hint "you have heard THEM say of old"]

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

Comment; Where did Jesus say this? Never did. He taught that if you recognise Him as who He says He is [and He kept telling them He was the I AM] then you recognise the Father who created Him

4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Ahhh bullseye!! Now couple that last part with what Jesus said "no man has seen or heard God {the Father} at ANYTIME". So who in Duet. was telling them to "heed His voice and worship Him and cleave to Him" and whos voice is He talking about since no one can see or hear the Father? The answer is in the first part "you shall follow the Lord, your God". I already shown how Jesus says He is the Lord, let alone Jehovah Elohim/Lord God. Try this simple well known proof verse from the Torah---"and the man has become US"--plural of "El"--Elohim, "Me and My Father are one"

De 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

The Lord [Jesus calls Himself Lord] is our God [our God because He created us], the Lord [Jesus] is one--and learning from other scriptures Jesus and the Father are not the same "entity".

Need more?

 

[AK4]

Go back and read it without editing it. It actually appears to be a statement directed at Christians of today...considering not other religion on the planet does anything (in the name of Jesus) except Christians. Again, "lord" here is not describing "God". The term (tilte) of "lord" was not exclusive to "God" or "Yeshua"....

Yes it is to those who believe in Him, mainly christians. But the way Jesus uses "Lord, Lord" in this context, in this type of speaking and whatever else you can think of, it is in the form of a Master or Leader or one who has been given power and authority to Judge.

But didn't say he was the Judge either now did it? In fact the biblical Yeshua stated he came not to Judge but to save but if he did judge it was because he would be doing the will of his god.

Not directly but yes He did. Why does it have to be so precise and such plain speech in a book full of parables upon parables--im talking about the whole bible not just the gospels. It clearly says He is the Judge if you look at it unbiasedly.

It says He came not to judge the world and it also says it was already Judged, so it takes maybe some spiritual understanding to understand what it all means huh? I understand it, do you?

John 8:15,16 and 18
You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.

Yea, at this point it should be plain to see that the biblical Yeshua was sent by his god to do the will of his god because it was his god that told him what he should say. I mean...the man said it plainly that he had no authority to speak for his god until his god allowed him to speak on his behalf. It sounds more like this Yeshua was more of an ambassador than (God in the flesh). As a matter of biblical fact Yeshua says out right he was sent, (not by his own will), but the will of his god that sent him

Yup i guess you think i am arguing this from a trinitarian point of view 3 in 1. No that is unscriptural. They are not the same "entity". You also problably think i am doing this from the view that Jesus was first brought about at that time. Nope. I come from this point---Jesus is the very first thing ever created by the Father. And then working through Jesus as His spokesman/representative [something that was to be the exact expressed image of the one who cant be seen or heard] they created everything else.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes it is to those who believe in Him, mainly christians. But the way Jesus uses "Lord, Lord" in this context, in this type of speaking and whatever else you can think of, it is in the form of a Master or Leader or one who has been given power and authority to Judge.

You are certainly welcome to believe this but that was not the intent nor did anyone listening to this think he was their god. You have place emphasis on the word "lord"...reading it from your English translation where they have capitalized the first letter so now your impression is that he must be "God". Not the case at all.

Not directly but yes He did. Why does it have to be so precise and such plain speech in a book full of parables upon parables

I don't have that problem. I can tell when a parable is being used verses a clear and concise statement. Case in point;

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true god, and Yeshua the Messiah, whom YOU have sent.

No parable there just straight talk (prayer actually) to his god.

It says He came not to judge the world and it also says it was already Judged, so it takes maybe some spiritual understanding to understand what it all means huh? I understand it, do you?

I see........I do know this...Nowhere in that book does Yeshua say he's "God" nor was it something he went around preaching and teaching. He outright asks the question...who do you say I am?, and the answer was...

Matthew 16:15-17
He asked them, But whom do you say I am?


And Simon Kepha answered and said, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living god.


And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

Simon knew he was not "God" rather he was the Messiah, son of "God".

Yup i guess you think i am arguing this from a trinitarian point of view 3 in 1. No that is unscriptural. They are not the same "entity". You also problably think i am doing this from the view that Jesus was first brought about at that time. Nope.

Nope...I didn't think or say you or were. I was simply responding to your interpretation of your scriptures.

And then working through Jesus as His spokesman/representative [something that was to be the exact expressed image of the one who cant be seen or heard]

Yea, that's pretty much what your scriptures say....but it certainly does not say implicitly or explicit the man was God...

 

[Ba'al]

See the problem is you think Jehovah or Yahweh isn’t Jesus but God the Father which is not the case. If you can learn to see that they all were Jesus and not God the Father then your response would change. Learn this major truth here and you will start to see it.

You are telling us to believe that Yahweh is Jesus and then everything will just all work out. This "major truth" we need to believe in is like believing someone is guilty before the trial even starts. How can someone investigate and analyze the evidence truthfully with a biased preconceived notion? The burden of proof lies with you to prove that Jesus was Yahweh, not ours. Aside from Jesus teaching the contrary to your belief, it's clear your arguments come from a theological viewpoint. That is we must be believers to "get it". Instead of ranting about what you've learned in church, try taking a history course on Christianity or the new testament or some textual criticism and your arguments would hold more weight.

 

[arimoff]

So i take it you say He [Jesus] ,if He was claiming to be God, would have broken one of these verses? Okay so lets go through them together

Deuteronomy 18

18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him

Comment: Jesus didnt break this

19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.

Comment: Jesus taught this "until you pay the utter most farthing"

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die

Comment: Jesus spoke of the only one true God--the Father

21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Comment: Did what Jesus prophecy about the temple come to pass? Yup. Did Jesus speak of His rising from the dead and it come to pass? Yup--His disciples were witnesses as were 500 others plus Paul. Has everything He prophecied come to pass? Not yet for the world, but for His elect yup it has and is happening to them then and now [Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ IN YOU and is not about what you here these christians out there false prophecing].

Deuteronomy 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Comment: Jesus never added or subtracted anything. He taught how to apply it spiritually. Oh and if you want to use some of the stuff He said in the Sermon on the Mount read those words carefully and do the research and see that He didnt contradict anything [hint "you have heard THEM say of old"]

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

Comment; Where did Jesus say this? Never did. He taught that if you recognise Him as who He says He is [and He kept telling them He was the I AM] then you recognise the Father who created Him

4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Ahhh bullseye!! Now couple that last part with what Jesus said "no man has seen or heard God {the Father} at ANYTIME". So who in Duet. was telling them to "heed His voice and worship Him and cleave to Him" and whos voice is He talking about since no one can see or hear the Father? The answer is in the first part "you shall follow the Lord, your God". I already shown how Jesus says He is the Lord, let alone Jehovah Elohim/Lord God. Try this simple well known proof verse from the Torah---"and the man has become US"--plural of "El"--Elohim, "Me and My Father are one"

De 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

The Lord [Jesus calls Himself Lord] is our God [our God because He created us], the Lord [Jesus] is one--and learning from other scriptures Jesus and the Father are not the same "entity".

Need more?

Before we would go in to the discussion on your comments, I would like to say that you did not get my point, so again we are back to beginning.

Jesus and the Father are not the same entity? In that case we absolutely have nothing to talk about. If you claim they are both the same we might have something to talk about, but once you claim them being two different entities then it is out of my ball park. Judaism is a believe in ONE G-D, in your case it is two father is one son is two, other then the fact that logically there can't be more then one G-D, how can you base your believes on an idea of one G-D and end up with two, and then claim the originators of being wrong using their scriptures?

Christianity is the direct result of a Roman believes mixed with Jewish believes, but not by having the Jews accepting their believes as was intended but the other way around. Jesus is a greeko-roman version of a Jewish G-D, to bad Christianity still doesn't understand that a Jewish G-D doesn't sit on top of a mountain, and can't have a physical form, as soon as you do realize that, you won't have the need for a character named Jesus.