The world with no absolute good or evil

[Just_me_Mike]

It is a concept that I would like to discuss with you all.

If we have a world where good and evil (or Love and Hate) are not absolutely defined, and that became the widely accepted belief among all the population, would schizophrenia occur wide spread?

To suggest an example, suppose there is a child raised in an isolated home, constantly exposed to role reversal, and role imagery. A world where justice and injustice are not discernible because it is never consistent. A world where one day he felt loved (defined as euphoric experience) and the next day from the same people hated (defined as total rejection).

Please do not respond with: what is love, what is good, what is evil, what is hate. If you do not know the answer to those, I submit you are already lost and schizophrenic. Denying what you once knew to be true but now question with your new philosophical toys of reason.

 

[ragordon168]

wow tough one.

i think using the example we would be schizophrenic as that is a biological disease but i do think we'd all be a bit f****d up, socio/psychopaths would be prevalent and human society could never function as every person would withdraw into themselves as they could never be sure how the next person they meet will treat them

 

[Nothing]

I think you have accurately described the world as it is in the here and now, itwillend. Those who view good and evil as absolutes are, fortunately very few. What is unfortunate is that these few often attain positions of authority and impose their absolutes upon others.
The childhood rearing you speak of is really quite normal, yet obviously quite dysfunctional. Looking back on my own childhood I can clearly recall days where I felt loved and days I felt hated. Inconsistency of justice/injustice? I have discovered as I grow older that the difference between the two becomes only cloudier.
In my opinion we already have a world where love and hate are not absolutely defined. How could they be? For an absolute definition of them to be accepted, the whole world would have to percieve them the same way. I'm quite confident it won't happen in my lifetime!

 

[whereismynotecard]

I don't appreciate being called schizophrenic. There are no absolute good and bad, right and wrong, love and hate. The only "absolutes" are definitions agreed upon by a large group of people within a certain culture. Other cultures and individuals may have different definitions of what is good and bad, and there is absolutely no way to say that one culture's/individual's definition is more correct than any other's.

 

[zenzero]

Friend itwillnotend,

If we have a world where good and evil (or Love and Hate) are not absolutely defined, and that became the widely accepted belief among all the population, would schizophrenia occur wide spread?

Schizophrenia (pronounced /ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/), from the Greek roots skhizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-; "mind") is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental disorder characterized by abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality

The answer is *NO*, no one will be schizophrenic because the definition clearly states that when there is a abnormality in perception or expression of reality and since the reality will be that there is nothing as good or evil then there can not be any abnormality in perception itself.

Love & rgds

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Friend itwillnotend,
The answer is *NO*, no one will be schizophrenic because the definition clearly states that when there is a abnormality in perception or expression of reality and since the reality will be that there is nothing as good or evil then there can not be any abnormality in perception itself.

Love & rgds

I don't appreciate you changing my name, but I guess that's fare game.

You have made an incorrect assumption. I didn't say a world with NO evil and good, I said absolute good and evil.

 

[Caladan]

It is a concept that I would like to discuss with you all.

If we have a world where good and evil (or Love and Hate) are not absolutely defined, and that became the widely accepted belief among all the population, would schizophrenia occur wide spread?

By reading the many different ideas of people on the forum its obvious that people carry different moral standards and broad ideas of positive and negative, no two people here can agree on 'absolute definitions' of good and evil.

To suggest an example, suppose there is a child raised in an isolated home, constantly exposed to role reversal, and role imagery. A world where justice and injustice are not discernible because it is never consistent. A world where one day he felt loved (defined as euphoric experience) and the next day from the same people hated (defined as total rejection).

I fail to see the connection to the first part of your post. would we have to call abuse evil in order to avoid it? would it be false to call abuse a result of psychosis for example?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

By reading the many different ideas of people on the forum its obvious that people carry different moral standards and broad ideas of positive and negative, no two people here can agree on 'absolute definitions' of good and evil.

Agreed, but similar to gravity there are many takes on what exactly it is, but we all agree it exists as something. Point being, just because no one can actually define it and agree upon one meaning, if gravity were gone we would float away.

I fail to see the connection to the first part of your post. would we have to call abuse evil in order to avoid it? would it be false to call abuse a result of psychosis for example?

The child was raised in an environment with no absolutes at all, other than absolute chaos. It is reasonable to assume he could become schizophrenic.

If the world had no absolutes when it comes to good/bad, love/hate I think the result would be the same as with the child, but on a massive scale.

 

[Caladan]

If the world had no absolutes when it comes to good/bad, love/hate I think the result would be the same as with the child, but on a massive scale.

Absolutes in love and hate?
oh boy...

 

[Erebus]

Itwillend:

It takes a LOT more than simple confusion to induce schizophrenia, having a world with less rigid emotional/societal concepts would not be enough to do this to people.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Absolutes in love and hate?
oh boy...

I know it is tough to consider, maybe ridiculous to some, but it is clear in the child situation what the results are, so why is it not reasonable to consider it on a larger scale?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Itwillend:

It takes a LOT more than simple confusion to induce schizophrenia, having a world with less rigid emotional/societal concepts would not be enough to do this to people.

Are you saying the situation with the child I mentioned would not be enough to cause it?

 

[Erebus]

Are you saying the situation with the child I mentioned would not be enough to cause it?

Exactly right. The child might grow up to be very confused, but schizophrenia is a whole other story.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Exactly right. The child might grow up to be very confused, but schizophrenia is a whole other story.

Have you ever looked at the backgrounds of Schizo adults? If so, please share your sources. Because I completely disagree with you.

Experts now agree that schizophrenia develops as a result of interplay between biological predisposition (for example, inheriting certain genes) and the kind of environment a person is exposed to. These lines of research are converging: brain development disruption is now known to be the result of genetic predisposition and environmental stressors early in development (during pregnancy or early childhood), leading to subtle alterations in the brain that make a person susceptible to developing schizophrenia.

Source

 

[Erebus]

Have you ever looked at the backgrounds of Schizo adults? If so, please share your sources. Because I completely disagree with you.
Source

Of course you're welcome to disagree with me, Psychology is still a hotly debated topic even among the experts

My main problem with Bowlby et al and Freud (Some of the main folks dealing with nurture in the nature/nurture department) is that a great deal of what they discussed is simply too sensationalised. Take Bowlby's "affectionless psychopaths" for example, the actual percentage of psychopaths created via the means he prescribed was really quite low, yet he exaggerated the facts to try and prove his hypothesis correct. Considering the fabrications Bowlby came up with (don't get me started on Freud) I find it difficult to give too much credit to these arguments (yes this is a result of personal preference, I'm not a big lover of Freud, Bowlby or their ilk).
Now, since I'm lucky enough to be the son of a Psychiatric nurse and a detective, I've had plenty of discussions with psychology boffins over the years. From what they say, there are far more schizophrenics produced through drug abuse and biological factors than through broken homes.
Now I'm not saying that these unstable environments won't mess people up, but I think schizophrenia would be too extreme a result (unless perhaps the negatives involved in the upbringing went to some real extremes... Beating, screaming abuse etc).

Needless to say, when it comes to schizophrenia I side more with nature rather than nurture.


*Edit* Cultural misunderstandings may play some part in our disagreement, thinking about it. For the most part in England, very few people are diagnosed as schizophrenic, where as from what I've heard, American doctors seem to be more willing to give this diagnosis. I used to have a booklet used to help psychiatrists decide if a patient is schizophrenic or not... You really do have to be far gone before you can be called schizophrenic over here.

*Edit Again* If I had to guess, I'd imagine manic depression would be a more likely outcome than schizophrenia.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Of course you're welcome to disagree with me, Psychology is still a hotly debated topic even among the experts

To be sure, it will be for a long time.

My main problem with Bowlby et al and Freud (Some of the main folks dealing with nurture in the nature/nurture department) is that a great deal of what they discussed is simply too sensationalised. Take Bowlby's "affectionless psychopaths" for example, the actual percentage of psychopaths created via the means he prescribed was really quite low, yet he exaggerated the facts to try and prove his hypothesis correct. Considering the fabrications Bowlby came up with (don't get me started on Freud) I find it difficult to give too much credit to these arguments (yes this is a result of personal preference, I'm not a big lover of Freud, Bowlby or their ilk).

You'll get no argument from me on these points...

Now, since I'm lucky enough to be the son of a Psychiatric nurse and a detective, I've had plenty of discussions with psychology boffins over the years. From what they say, there are far more schizophrenics produced through drug abuse and biological factors than through broken homes.

I never said drug abuse isn't a factor either. I am not suggesting it is an either/or type of thing. Certainly drug abuse is paramount. That does not negate what I am suggesting though.

Now I'm not saying that these unstable environments won't mess people up, but I think schizophrenia would be too extreme a result (unless perhaps the negatives involved in the upbringing went to some real extremes... Beating, screaming abuse etc).

I do not see how this is different than my example of a child being exposed to what I suggested. In fact research supports what I am suggesting. I think you might be giving to much credit to the human mind under twisted circumstances.

Needless to say, when it comes to schizophrenia I side more with nature rather than nurture.

I don't think sides need to be taken, research indicates both are factors. Actually it seems "environments" trigger innate disorders within. So they work together.

*Edit* Cultural misunderstandings may play some part in our disagreement, thinking about it. For the most part in England, very few people are diagnosed as schizophrenic, where as from what I've heard, American doctors seem to be more willing to give this diagnosis. I used to have a booklet used to help psychiatrists decide if a patient is schizophrenic or not... You really do have to be far gone before you can be called schizophrenic over here.

This may be, but there are 6 times as many people in the US, so naturally it will be a higher amount diagnosed. I do not know enough to say whether or not the method of diagnosis is different from America to England, so you may be right.

*Edit Again* If I had to guess, I'd imagine manic depression would be a more likely outcome than schizophrenia.

Way to understated, I might meet you in the middle with personality disorder.

How about we discuss the specific example I gave, you referenced earlier they might "mess people up", but that doesn't tell me much.

 

[ericoh2]

It is a concept that I would like to discuss with you all.

If we have a world where good and evil (or Love and Hate) are not absolutely defined, and that became the widely accepted belief among all the population, would schizophrenia occur wide spread?

To suggest an example, suppose there is a child raised in an isolated home, constantly exposed to role reversal, and role imagery. A world where justice and injustice are not discernible because it is never consistent. A world where one day he felt loved (defined as euphoric experience) and the next day from the same people hated (defined as total rejection).

Please do not respond with: what is love, what is good, what is evil, what is hate. If you do not know the answer to those, I submit you are already lost and schizophrenic. Denying what you once knew to be true but now question with your new philosophical toys of reason.

In the world today I see two different categories of what one may call "good and evil." Humans are creatures of habit mostly acquired from our environment. This appears to be largely what our ideas of good and evil are based on. However there does exist an innate quality in us that is more of an intuitive sensing of positive and negative situations. This appears to be more atrophied in us from my point of view.
As far as I'm concerned nothing can have any value of good or evil if it is based solely on imitation which is what I see widely throughout the world. I just recently saw a video in Africa, I think, where people were being burned as witches and this is seen as "good." So to sum it up, I think as a whole, an absolute good and evil is a pretty shaky concept today as it is and if you define schizophrenia as a division within someone (part of me wants this but part of me wants the opposite), that is at least mildly the case in almost everyone. I end on one of my favorite quotes "Real man is neither 'good' nor 'evil' but conscious. -- George Gurdjieff.

 

[Caladan]

I know it is tough to consider, maybe ridiculous to some, but it is clear in the child situation what the results are, so why is it not reasonable to consider it on a larger scale?

Because we have to shed the innocence of childhood at some point. not all is black and white. in fact, life is much more interesting and engaging.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Because we have to shed the innocence of childhood at some point. not all is black and white. in fact, life is much more interesting and engaging.

Dan I don't see the relevance, but that's OK, I like you because you are a peace maker. You try to bring people together instead of separate them.

Carry on!

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

It is a concept that I would like to discuss with you all.

If we have a world where good and evil (or Love and Hate) are not absolutely defined, and that became the widely accepted belief among all the population, would schizophrenia occur wide spread?

To suggest an example, suppose there is a child raised in an isolated home, constantly exposed to role reversal, and role imagery. A world where justice and injustice are not discernible because it is never consistent. A world where one day he felt loved (defined as euphoric experience) and the next day from the same people hated (defined as total rejection).

Please do not respond with: what is love, what is good, what is evil, what is hate. If you do not know the answer to those, I submit you are already lost and schizophrenic. Denying what you once knew to be true but now question with your new philosophical toys of reason.

I personally don't believe that there is absolute good or evil in the world.