The ToE and common ancestry of all life forms did not come from looking at the evidence

[Autodidact]

MoF: Still looking for that commitment from you before I spend my valuable time.

 

[themadhair]

This is a classic case to prove the OP. You already believed in evolution by common descent before last night when you said you learned this.

The projection is pretty clear cut with this one.

There are still lot's of unanswered questions and I prefer to let the creationists, those with like mind as me to answer what could possibly be going on.

I appreciate your honesty here in drawing a distinction between ‘creationist’ and ‘scientist’ here.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

This is a classic case to prove the OP. You already believed in evolution by common descent before last night when you said you learned this. So when you read this article it confirmed in your mind what you already believed, it did not lead you to believe in evolution. The article didn't even mention evolution, you inserted that into your head because that is your worldview.

From the article “Transposable L1 elements make up 17 percent of our DNA, but very little is known about them,” “This study brings up the question of whether L1s are just taking advantage of DNA breaks to plug themselves into these sites or are they are being used by the host cell to mediate the repair,” There are still lot's of unanswered questions and I prefer to let the creationists, those with like mind as me to answer what could possibly be going on.

You miss the point MoF. WHY should that work? Never mind all the things not yet understood. The repair ability exists. Has been shown to exist. It works. Whatever other things are going on that ability is real demonstrated fact.

WHY should that be? Why would DNA have this ability to jump across specie lines? IF every "kind" is unique and unrelated to any other why would the most basic instructions for creating it be interchangeable? Surely we are much more complex than yeast. Yet our respective DNA is so close that ours can repair the yeast. WHY?

 

[Man of Faith]

MoF: Still looking for that commitment from you before I spend my valuable time.

Hold off for now, I'm not there yet.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., let me know when you're ready to learn what the actual evidence is. Until then, don't go around saying that you reject the evidence, or you'll look like a yo-yo.

 

[Man of Faith]

You miss the point MoF. WHY should that work? Never mind all the things not yet understood. The repair ability exists. Has been shown to exist. It works. Whatever other things are going on that ability is real demonstrated fact.

WHY should that be? Why would DNA have this ability to jump across specie lines? IF every "kind" is unique and unrelated to any other why would the most basic instructions for creating it be interchangeable? Surely we are much more complex than yeast. Yet our respective DNA is so close that ours can repair the yeast. WHY?

The why is yet to be known on both sides. Does it prove evolution, creation, or neither. It will more than likely be left to the individual to determine like all the other data is.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

The why is yet to be known on both sides. Does it prove evolution, creation, or neither. It will more than likely be left to the individual to determine like all the other data is.

No MoF. The why is clear. One part of our DNA and one part of yeast DNA are interchangeable. How can that be?

You keep ignoring the obvious. We know how inheritance works. We know from where those common features of DNA could have come from. The ONLY place they could have come from. A older common ancestor. There is no other possible explanation for this overlap.

And to say that each person can interpret data in any manner they like is to deny the possibility of learning. It denies science works. What you are saying is that NOTHING is known. That all reality is formed by each of us in our own interpretation. That would include your favorite book of fables. My "interpretation" of it is just as valid as yours.

You really want to go there?

WHY is so-o-o hard for you to simply say, "I believe because I want to. I don't understand the world and I don't NEED to. I have my faith and it works. The facts of science just don't matter to me. My faith is sufficient unto itself."

That at least is honest.

 

[Autodidact]

Just to clarify your position, MoF, is it this? Let me know if you disagree with any of these.

• The world is around 10,000 years old.
• God magically poofed two of each "kind" (whatever that may be) into existence around 6000 years ago. Different "kinds" are completely unrelated and separately created.
• New species do arise, but only within a "kind." This happens through the process described in ToE, descent with modification plus natural selection.
• Around 4000 years ago, there was a worldwide flood. Only one family of humans survived. They took two of each "kind" on board with them. All the animals on earth descended from these creatures.
• I don't know what your position is on the plants, or how they survived.

Is that all correct?

 

[Man of Faith]

Just to clarify your position, MoF, is it this? Let me know if you disagree with any of these.

• The world is around 10,000 years old.
• God magically poofed two of each "kind" (whatever that may be) into existence around 6000 years ago. Different "kinds" are completely unrelated and separately created.
• New species do arise, but only within a "kind." This happens through the process described in ToE, descent with modification plus natural selection.
• Around 4000 years ago, there was a worldwide flood. Only one family of humans survived. They took two of each "kind" on board with them. All the animals on earth descended from these creatures.
• I don't know what your position is on the plants, or how they survived.

Is that all correct?

That's close enough, yes. Vegetation, insects, plants, and bacteria could have survived on floating grass mats.

 

[Autodidact]

That's close enough, yes. Vegetation, insects, plants, and bacteria could have survived on floating grass mats.

No they couldn't, but that's a separate matter. Just wanted to nail down your position.

What is a kind?

Within an order of magnitude, about how many kinds did Noah take on the ark?

 

[Alceste]

That's close enough, yes. Vegetation, insects, plants, and bacteria could have survived on floating grass mats.

And let me guess, the Bible is your only "evidence" for any of these claims. Can you please quote the verse where the bible states vegetation survived in "grass mats"? Thanks.

 

[MSizer]

I hate floating grass matts. There are so many of them in the atlantic that it makes it almost impassable by ship at times. And man, the bugs that are on them, man, they'll eat you alive. Not to mention all of the diseases people catch every year from sailing by the floating grass matts in the antarctic.

 

[Autodidact]

I hate floating grass matts. There are so many of them in the atlantic that it makes it almost impassable by ship at times. And man, the bugs that are on them, man, they'll eat you alive. Not to mention all of the diseases people catch every year from sailing by the floating grass matts in the antarctic.

I love how the flood can carve the Grand Canyon, but doesn't disturb the ants on floating grass mats.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I hate floating grass matts. There are so many of them in the atlantic that it makes it almost impassable by ship at times. And man, the bugs that are on them, man, they'll eat you alive. Not to mention all of the diseases people catch every year from sailing by the floating grass matts in the antarctic.

Exactly...

 

[OmarKhayyam]

There is another point about the OP that needs to be addressed. MoF is wrong about Darwin. He had considerable evidence on which to base his conclusions – his “model.” Those who have actually READ Origins know this all TOO well. But MoF’s claim is erroneous for another reason.

Recall Einstein’s Special ToR. It was proposed in 1905 while Einstein was a clerk in the Swiss patent office. He had no staff, no budget, no lab, and no equipment. His entire paper was based on what he called “thought experiments.” Reasoning about things and making a “model” based on his thinking. But his model made predictions. IF he was correct than certain things must be true. He listed those and suggested a way those who did have a lab and $ and equipment could determine if he was right. So indeed his model came first. Only later was empirical evidence discovered to prove he was right (or least more right than anyone else at the time). And this is often how science works. Someone has an idea a “model” and sets out to try to prove his model works. Most of the time he is wrong. Sometimes VERY wrong. But every now and again as with Einstein the model is right and new knowledge is created.

Compare this with “Creation Science.” It announces before a single proposal made or experiment conducted what its conclusion is to be. It makes no model at all. It offers no evidence, conducts no experiments, makes no predictions, and offers no new facts. It simply says, “This is true because we say it is true. Whoever disagrees is wrong by definition. And perhaps even Evil as well.” Its ENTIRE body of work consists of objections and attacks on evidence supporting ToE. And it offers no alternative other than to repeat its previously decided upon and unsupported conclusions.

Is it any wonder the Dover case was decided the way it was?

 

[tumbleweed41]

That's close enough, yes. Vegetation, insects, plants, and bacteria could have survived on floating grass mats.

Thanks, another instance for my creationist lies thread.

Salinity in the water would not support land vegetation, without land vegetation many insects would not survive the trip (over a year on saline water). Nor is there any evidence of a "grass mat" that could survive the massive undulations claimed by flood proponents without destroying all the "hitchhikers" aboard.

 

[Smoke]

Here is proof that the ToE and common ancestry of all life forms did not come from looking at the evidence. The evidence that is presented below wasn't around when the ToE was formed by Darwin. So what we have is a theory presented then the data being interpreted to support the theory.

In 2008, I obtained a copy of my great-grandmother's death certificate, and if you would like evidence of her death I will be glad to produce it for you. However, I had other and ample evidence that she had passed away long before I obtained that particular bit of evidence.

 

[Autodidact]

Man of Faith? Evidence? Interest?

 

[Man of Faith]

In 2008, I obtained a copy of my great-grandmother's death certificate, and if you would like evidence of her death I will be glad to produce it for you. However, I had other and ample evidence that she had passed away long before I obtained that particular bit of evidence.

Would you have evidence of your great-grandmothers death if she died billions of years ago? That's what Darwin was doing, saying he knew how something happened billions of years ago.

 

[McBell]

Would you have evidence of your great-grandmothers death if she died billions of years ago? That's what Darwin was doing, saying he knew how something happened billions of years ago.

as a matter of fact he would.
Perhaps you can even figure out what evidence he would have....

Or maybe you think that people live for billions of years?