The ToE and common ancestry of all life forms did not come from looking at the evidence

[Autodidact]

This is the second YEC in a month who has turned down my offer to present the evidence in favor of ToE, after claiming there isn't any. It's almost enough to make you think they're not really honest or something. Golly.

 

[RND]

Hey, do you guys know about the evolution toward smaller elephant tusks in africa discovered by analyzing data from the 1920s - '60s? Apparently since poachers tend to kill elephants with the largest tusks, the elephant gene pool is being reduced of large tusk genes, and the tusk length of elepants in africa has been declining steadily for at least 6 known decades, probably longer. That's evolution, but not natural selection. It pi$$es me off. I'd like to see the human race reduced of poachers by reducing the poaching gene from our pool by elephants with guns.

Question(s): How are elephants able to deduce that poachers only kill elephants with longer tusks? And how does this acquiring this knowledge effect the gene pool of elephants? In other words, how do elephants us this knowledge to influence the species gene pool?

For example, one way humans might do this is arrest, try and imprison poachers so the likely hood of reproduction is curtailed (but of course that doesn't eliminate the sin problem itself). How do elephants use the supposed knowledge they gain to change their gene pool? Do elephants have any control over the gene pool? If not, what is the "force" behind making sure tusks are reduced in size?

Just askin'

 

[McBell]

Question(s): How are elephants able to deduce that poachers only kill elephants with longer tusks? And how does this acquiring this knowledge effect the gene pool of elephants? In other words, how do elephants us this knowledge to influence the species gene pool?

For example, one way humans might do this is arrest, try and imprison poachers so the likely hood of reproduction is curtailed (but of course that doesn't eliminate the sin problem itself). How do elephants use the supposed knowledge they gain to change their gene pool? Do elephants have any control over the gene pool? If not, what is the "force" behind making sure tusks are reduced in size?

Just askin'

simple really.
The elephants with longer tusks are killed.
because they are dead, the do not have as many offspring.

Where as the elephants with shorter tusks are not killed as much.
Thus they have more offspring.

 

[themadhair]

Question(s): How are elephants able to deduce that poachers only kill elephants with longer tusks?

They don’t. If an elephant has long tusks they are more likely to be poached and therefore less likely to pass on the genes for longer tusks. If they have the genes for smaller tusks they are less likely to be poached and thus more likely to live to reproduce and pass on those genes.

There is no conscious decision being made on the part of the elephants.

Do elephants have any control over the gene pool?

No. The environment (in the form of poachers) has that control.

If not, what is the "force" behind making sure tusks are reduced in size?

See the first part of this post.

 

[darkendless]

simple really.
The elephants with longer tusks are killed.
because they are dead, the do not have as many offspring.

Where as the elephants with shorter tusks are not killed as much.
Thus they have more offspring.

Maybe, in central Africa they're killed just as much for wandering onto a farm and eating a few crops here and there. We humans really are a despicable specie. We move in, develop our technology (guns) then wipe out everything that annoys us. I can't remember, but which book was it that taught us we were superior to animals in some way?

Also, isn't it somewhat painful that we're still debating the likelihood of evolution? This is unrelated, but i watched a video this morning about how stubborn atheists are for not believing in God we can't see. But how stubborn or stupid or ignorant are fundamentalists who can't accept evolution which we can see

 

[RND]

They don’t. If an elephant has long tusks they are more likely to be poached and therefore less likely to pass on the genes for longer tusks. If they have the genes for smaller tusks they are less likely to be poached and thus more likely to live to reproduce and pass on those genes.

Thank you. What about elephants that still grow large tusks and are protected in controlled environments such as zoos or other national parks?

Basically what you are describing isn't an effect of the gene pool as much as you are describing an effect on the elephants.

There is no conscious decision being made on the part of the elephants.

True enough.

No. The environment (in the form of poachers) has that control.

So if there were no poachers there would be no change. Thus the gene pool can only be effected by outside influences, is that right?

 

[RND]

simple really.
The elephants with longer tusks are killed.
because they are dead, the do not have as many offspring.

Isn't that simply a generality?

Where as the elephants with shorter tusks are not killed as much.
Thus they have more offspring.

Isn't that another generality?

 

[RND]

But how stubborn or stupid or ignorant are fundamentalists who can't accept evolution which we can see

OK, I'll bite. What evolution are we seeing at the present time?

 

[rojse]

Thank you. What about elephants that still grow large tusks and are protected in controlled environments such as zoos or other national parks?

Unfortunately, poachers are not largely concerned with where an elephant is.

Basically what you are describing isn't an effect of the gene pool as much as you are describing an effect on the elephants.

What affects the elephants in this situation affects the genepool too.

So if there were no poachers there would be no change. Thus the gene pool can only be effected by outside influences, is that right?

Not always. If female elephants preferred male elephants with longer tusks, for example, elephants with longer tusks would get more mates, and consequently, more offspring would have longer tusks, too.

 

[rojse]

OK, I'll bite. What evolution are we seeing at the present time?

That's your opening, Autodidact.

 

[darkendless]

OK, I'll bite. What evolution are we seeing at the present time?

This was meant in reference to the genetic similarities we share with many other species, especially other primates. Also, how many animals species are similar? Quite a few share genetic traits.

Tests have been done by biologists using bacteria under optimum conditions to simulate the early stages of evolution. Since we only live for about 75 years, and evolution has progressed over 4 billion years, its a little hard to comprehensively exhibit evolution that would wow a fundamentalist. We can't really grow a human out of bacteria in 60 years Check out this if you're interested in seeing what some people are doing. Research — evolution.ws

 

[freethinker44]

OK, I'll bite. What evolution are we seeing at the present time?

Nylon eating bacteria.

They are a strain of the bacteria flavobacterium that branched away and evolved the ability to produce the enzymes used to eat nylon from waste water ponds around nylon producing factories. Nylon is 100% manmade and did not exist before 1935.

This bacteria evolved to adapt to support a new food source.

 

[RND]

This was meant in reference to the genetic similarities we share with many other species, especially other primates. Also, how many animals species are similar? Quite a few share genetic traits.

So can I take it that we aren't seeing any species in the process of evolution? No catdogs as of yet?

Tests have been done by biologists using bacteria under optimum conditions to simulate the early stages of evolution.

How do scientist know what optimum conditions for evolution are?

Since we only live for about 75 years,

Seventh-day Adventist's live and average of eight years for women and five years for men longer than the statistical average. Plus there is that eternal life thing.

and evolution has progressed over 4 billion years, its a little hard to comprehensively exhibit evolution that would wow a fundamentalist.

That's a generality. Take your best shot. Enthrall me!

We can't really grow a human out of bacteria in 60 years Check out this if you're interested in seeing what some people are doing. Research — evolution.ws

Thanks.

 

[RND]

Nylon eating bacteria.

They are a strain of the bacteria flavobacterium that branched away and evolved the ability to produce the enzymes used to eat nylon from waste water ponds around nylon producing factories. Nylon is 100% manmade and did not exist before 1935.

This bacteria evolved to adapt to support a new food source.

And this effects me how?

By the way, how do we know that the bacteria you mentioned weren't predisposed to eat nylon to begin with and were simply waiting for it's invention?

 

[RND]

Unfortunately, poachers are not largely concerned with where an elephant is.

Apparently then we should see evidence of that by seeing the elephants at the San Diego Zoo being poached, que no?

What affects the elephants in this situation affects the genepool too.

That might be. But assuming there are elephants that are not threatened by poachers then the gene pool wouldn't be effected right?

Not always. If female elephants preferred male elephants with longer tusks, for example, elephants with longer tusks would get more mates, and consequently, more offspring would have longer tusks, too.

Right, but this would relate to elephant tusks getting larger, not shrinking.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

And this effects me how?

By the way, how do we know that the bacteria you mentioned weren't predisposed to eat nylon to begin with and were simply waiting for it's invention?

And from where and by what agency would they get this predisposition. Nylon was unknown. Are you suggesting bacteria have a predisposition for things not yet invented? Really? You actually want to defend that position?

 

[OmarKhayyam]

As for what recent evidence we have try this.

And do please remember (assuming you know) populations evolve NOT individuals. So no puppycats are predicted by ToE. Every organism is the same species as its parent(s) - it own "kind." That has always been true and ToE says it always will be. Just like your favorite book of myths says.

But I guess you already knew that - right?

 

[RND]

And from where and by what agency would they get this predisposition. Nylon was unknown.

Just askin' questions. The notion that somehow bacteria "evolved" to eat nylon seems rather silly to me. They must have had a a predisposition to eat it.

Are you suggesting bacteria have a predisposition for things not yet invented? Really?

Based on the information provided by the other poster that's all I can conclude that this point. Your argument would be that since TV dinners weren't invented until the '50's those born before the '50's would somehow not be predisposed to eat them!

You actually want to defend that position?

Sure. I have to qualms wqith that. It makes no difference what type of food the bacteria is eating, whether it be nylon or soft shell tacos. Obviously if it is being consumed there was some sort of predisposition to eat it.

 

[RND]

As for what recent evidence we have try this.

Thanks for the link.

And do please remember (assuming you know) populations evolve NOT individuals.

Then we should see whole populations of catdogs.

So no puppycats are predicted by ToE. Every organism is the same species as its parent(s) - it own "kind." That has always been true and ToE says it always will be. Just like your favorite book of myths says.

Sounds like my favorite book of myths came up with the notion long before science did.

But I guess you already knew that - right?

What that the Bible is right and the chance of things evolving has about as much chance as a scoop of dirt placed in a show box has of becoming a wrist watch?

 

[RND]

Question: If bacteria and viruses evolve how come they always remain bacteria and viruses? Is there any evidence that bacteria or viruses have evolved into a different life form other than what they are?