Before Big Bang

[Twilight Hue]

From a SCIENTIFIC view, it is a valid part of how one understands our universe and how we got here. It is indeed PART of the puzzle, so you can stop with this condescending and arrogant attitude and also stop with the assumptions of what I or anyone who does not believe in these things as you don't know or need to know.

Many public TV programs show dramatically how the BB caused the formation of gasses which later produced stars and planets like our own. How that later after our planet formed and gasses cooled ...lakes and oceans began to appear ...and then over much longer time a primordial soup formed out of which the life here sprang. Over even more time and natural selection processes, beings/creatures formed as we know them now.

They don't bother to stop showing such narrations and displays because of the mere fact that they're several separate science categories, please!

This is a forum to discuss more than just one very narrow aspect which I get the feeling many who do not believe in God wish to constrain me to. I do not believe for example if someone would approach you regarding God creating all things that in answering you would not bring-up the Big Bang, Abiogenesis, or Evolution in whatever order needed.

You obviously don't know or don't care that the big bang theory has absolutely nothing to do in regards to the ultimate start of everything. The theory has to do with the formation of the universe and not the start of everything from nothing. Stop listening to what your pastor and compatriots are preaching and read a science book and see for yourself what the theory encompasses.
To compare the idea of creation with peer reviewed science is utter bollocks and by the way, I wouldn't even need bring up the big bang at all in any conversation regarding creation simply because it has absolutely nothing to do with primary origins but rather, the big bang theory deals with the origin of the universe and its development and nothing more. Of course abiogenesis and evolution may come up but you obviously posted them as strawman. Your op never even mentioned the latter two.

 

[Erebus]

Well, I go with scientific theory but a lot of religious people wouldn't because they think it contradicts their scripture. As long as one takes a literal interpretation then one definitely cannot accept the big bang theory.

Yes of course, I forget about the "fundies" sometimes

 

[Valjean]

"Before the big bang" is somewhat oxymoronic as the various dimensions of Reality manifested in the Big Bang -- including time.
Before the BB there was no matter, no energy, no time, no antimatter. "Before" presupposes the existence of an effect before its cause.

 

[YmirGF]

"before the big bang" is somewhat oxymoronic as the various dimensions of reality manifested in the big bang -- including time.
Before the bb there was no matter, no energy, no time, no antimatter. "before" presupposes the existence of an effect before its cause.

b i n g o!

 

[Whathell]

In our galaxy alone there are over a hundred-billion stars. There are over a hundred-billion galaxies in the known universe. In comparison to the grand scheme of things, I can’t even begin to comprehend exactly how small I am. Anytime I think about these things, I am put into a state of awe. I am impassioned by the majesty of the natural world. The Earth itself is so diverse and amazing that it can keep me up at night thinking about how ecosystems and genetic diversity play out and have played out for the last three or four billion years.

Our universe is 13.7 billion years old, which is another number so large the human mind can’t comprehend it. What’s more interesting to me is that Sol, our local star, is only 4.57 billion years old. It’s a third generation star, which means that it and the rest of our solar system is made up of material from a star that sat in this same spot and then died, twice. I often wonder if life had managed to evolve on a planet rotating around the first or second generation Sol. Maybe that life had reached the stars and colonized this whole galaxy, only to eventually die out in the billions of years that have passed since their first sentient thought.

This seems like a lot of rambling but my point is this: the universe is exorbitantly large and remarkably old. Our entire civilization, whether we leave Earth or not, will be more than lucky to even last a blinks worth of time to this universe. I think that one of the most repugnant things about most organized religion is the kind of self centered id they have about our place in this world. The whole universe was created so that our puny planet could come forth nine billion years later, and we puny humans could come about in another four billion years after that? That is a kind of egocentrism and arrogance that even an atheist could never have. I find all of that incredibly unlikely. However, I do feel fortunate to have been able to witness as much as I have so far, and I can only hope to see more of the wonders the natural world has to offer.

With statements like...

You wrote:
[...will be more than lucky to even last a blinks worth of time to this universe.]

...and

You wrote:
[In our galaxy alone there are over a hundred-billion stars. There are over a hundred-billion galaxies in the known universe. In comparison to the grand scheme of things, I can’t even begin to comprehend exactly how small I am. Anytime I think about these things, I am put into a state of awe. I am impassioned by the majesty of the natural world.]

How can you so easily after all that being said, then start with:
[The Earth itself is so diverse and amazing that it can keep me up at night thinking about how ecosystems and genetic diversity play out and have played out for the last three or four billion years.]

Because science says so, right?

LOL

Our science knowledge is best in what ...just the past 3 decades or so? So, in comparing what WE THINK WE KNOW WITH SUCH HIGH DEGREE OF CERTAINTY in just 30 years or so of knowledge to a multi-billions year old system (which is just an educated guess) seem a little irrational to me. There is NOTHING saying this IS SO even anywhere near that level. Yet we speak on such grand things with a certainty that is by far unwarranted considering how puny and minuscule we truly are to the grandness which exist both in and around us.

It just amazes me you can see religious systems as arrogant but not those who take for granted what science currently claims as the same ...its just amazing to me.

What if science is has steered you wrong, completely?

What if there is a being who created man and woman full-grown and gave them the ability to think? When you consider what's known to be going on based on the current knowledge ...it should not be a far stretch of the imagination anymore to believe this happened possibly.

Also, even though off topic, God is not a religion. Neither are ALL these religious systems of God's doing ...men are very arrogant and will lie and create lies to support other lies (I think it's called politics ...just joking ...lol).

I can only hope you find-out one day there is only ONE true God and Faith which HE has put in this earth and all else are deceptions and lies.

 

[Kerr]

With statements like...

You wrote:
[...will be more than lucky to even last a blinks worth of time to this universe.]

...and

You wrote:
[In our galaxy alone there are over a hundred-billion stars. There are over a hundred-billion galaxies in the known universe. In comparison to the grand scheme of things, I can’t even begin to comprehend exactly how small I am. Anytime I think about these things, I am put into a state of awe. I am impassioned by the majesty of the natural world.]

How can you so easily after all that being said, then start with:
[The Earth itself is so diverse and amazing that it can keep me up at night thinking about how ecosystems and genetic diversity play out and have played out for the last three or four billion years.]

Because science says so, right?

LOL

Our science knowledge is best in what ...just the past 3 decades or so? So, in comparing what WE THINK WE KNOW WITH SUCH HIGH DEGREE OF CERTAINTY in just 30 years or so of knowledge to a multi-billions year old system (which is just an educated guess) seem a little irrational to me. There is NOTHING saying this IS SO even anywhere near that level. Yet we speak on such grand things with a certainty that is by far unwarranted considering how puny and minuscule we truly are to the grandness which exist both in and around us.

Which is why science is a better source of knowledge then religion. It looks at what is, draws conclusions of it, independent of religion or faith, and then when it has an idea of what happens, it looks again and again and again. If it finds a fact that negates its theories or ideas, it throws those away. Like Lammarck had to move aside for Darwin, Newton had to move aside for Einstein, and the same things applies to all other aspects of science. Science evolve. Which is why I trust it more then any alternative, for the alternatives are static and does not rely on empirical evidence.

It just amazes me you can see religious systems as arrogant but not those who take for granted what science currently claims as the same ...its just amazing to me.

What if science is has steered you wrong, completely?

What if there is a being who created man and woman full-grown and gave them the ability to think? When you consider what's known to be going on based on the current knowledge ...it should not be a far stretch of the imagination anymore to believe this happened possibly.

If there is a deity, why would it be your deity? Why not Thor? Why not Odin? Why not Isis? Why not a deity that we have never come across and who has other plans then you think your deity has? Or what if science is actually a part of your deities plan for us?

We can all say "what if". Always.

Also, even though off topic, God is not a religion. Neither are ALL these religious systems of God's doing ...men are very arrogant and will lie and create lies to support other lies (I think it's called politics ...just joking ...lol).

I can only hope you find-out one day there is only ONE true God and Faith which HE has put in this earth and all else are deceptions and lies.

Paranoia does not make it so, nor does faith.

 

[Whathell]

"Before the big bang" is somewhat oxymoronic as the various dimensions of Reality manifested in the Big Bang -- including time.
Before the BB there was no matter, no energy, no time, no antimatter. "Before" presupposes the existence of an effect before its cause.

You forgot to mention

You wrote:
[Before the BB there was no matter, no energy, no time, no antimatter]

...and no evidence!

 

[Kerr]

You forgot to mention

You wrote:
[Before the BB there was no matter, no energy, no time, no antimatter]

...and no evidence!

Which may be why none here has claimed to know why it happened... maybe it was God. But everything I have seen points to that the big bang did indeed happen.

 

[Whathell]

b i n g o!

BINGO is right ...because it's pretty much a game at that point

Now what's the reasoning again that God didn't create the universe ?

 

[Whathell]

Which may be why none here has claimed to know why it happened... maybe it was God. But everything I have seen points to that the big bang did indeed happen.

I never said anyone CLAIMED anything but the certainty of what science reports as truth.

And what you've seen is subjective ...if in fact you even have for yourself actually seen it vs. only read/heard about it.

 

[Kerr]

I never said anyone CLAIMED anything but the certainty of what science reports as truth.

Which is what is most likely to be true based on what we have observed to this moment in time. If something comes up that contradicts it in the future we will see what happens then. As stated, science look at what we know and see, it does not rely on faith or belief, and as a consequence it evolves.

And what you've seen is subjective ...if in fact you even have for yourself actually seen it vs. only read/heard about it.

Do not read words literally, when I say what I have seen I mean what I have read in books, seen on TV documentaries (I think I have seen a few of those, anyway). and so on. Same as everyone else on this planet, that is.

 

[Whathell]

Which is why science is a better source of knowledge then religion. It looks at what is, draws conclusions of it, independent of religion or faith, and then when it has an idea of what happens, it looks again and again and again. If it finds a fact that negates its theories or ideas, it throws those away. Like Lammarck had to move aside for Darwin, Newton had to move aside for Einstein, and the same things applies to all other aspects of science. Science evolve. Which is why I trust it more then any alternative, for the alternatives are static and does not rely on empirical evidence.
If there is a deity, why would it be your deity? Why not Thor? Why not Odin? Why not Isis? Why not a deity that we have never come across and who has other plans then you think your deity has? Or what if science is actually a part of your deities plan for us?

We can all say "what if". Always.

Paranoia does not make it so, nor does faith.

You wrote:
[Which is why science is a better source of knowledge then religion.]

I don't advocate religion but I do advocate Yeshua/Jesus. He I know exist by person experience.

You wrote:
[If there is a deity, why would it be your deity?]

The way you find-out about anything you don't know ...in this case you try to met him (Yeshua/Jesus) according to his terms which he himself has set. If it's a lie then nothing can happen. It someone says Santa comes down chimneys with gifts on the 25th of Dec. ...all you have to do is wait to prove it's a lie, right?

It's just that simple to prove it to yourself ...it does mater what others think or don't know because it only maters that YOU know the truth.

It's something one can do in minutes ...if they REALLY wanted to know.

One day I did it when I was approached by him and have never looked back. In fact, the more I see of how things are going in this world the happier it makes me that I came to know him.

I thank GOD, he had mercy on me.

You wrote:
[We can all say "what if". Always.]

Well, at least some of us can

You wrote:
[Paranoia does not make it so, nor does faith.]

Nor does science as a religion substitute for unbiased truth

Science USE to be about seeking-out the truths of our natural universe and NOT about supporting scientific BELIEF systems currently in place.

 

[Whathell]

Which is what is most likely to be true based on what we have observed to this moment in time. If something comes up that contradicts it in the future we will see what happens then. As stated, science look at what we know and see, it does not rely on faith or belief, and as a consequence it evolves.


Do not read words literally, when I say what I have seen I mean what I have read in books, seen on TV documentaries (I think I have seen a few of those, anyway). and so on. Same as everyone else on this planet, that is.

[it does not rely on faith or belief]

I would say it SHOULD NOT rely on faiths or beliefs held ...but there is already a trend which shows that's not the case.

I can Google Evolution being sited as FACT by many who teach science with no problem.

 

[EtuMalku]

I believe in the Hermetic Laws, they have never failed me in any search for understanding.

THE ALL or Spirit is the Substantial Reality underlying all outward manifestations and appearances otherwise known as 'the material universe'.
THE ALL is apparent to our material senses though in itself is Unknowable and Undefinable

The Universe is a Mental Creation of the ALL
But the answer that we are all looking for is from whence did this 'ALL' come?
Another ALL created this ALL, the ALL created itself? No, none of these work for me personally.

I believe in the concept that everything is vibration and before the Universe was created there was an Etheric Reality filled with chaotic imbalances. From the fusion of opposites enabled by vibration, this chaos was set in motion and the Primeval Mind / THE ALL (consciousness) emerged.

The Universe being a sphere that has exploded outwardly becomes denser and denser in vibration and lower in frequency until it finally becomes so slow it is physically manifest.

The biological brain is not the origin of consciousness. Instead, it functions as a temporary biological transfer and storage device for consciousness.
Consciousness is a continuum of nonphysical energy extending its awareness through multiple frequencies (dimensions) of the universe.

 

[Whathell]

You obviously don't know or don't care that the big bang theory has absolutely nothing to do in regards to the ultimate start of everything. The theory has to do with the formation of the universe and not the start of everything from nothing. Stop listening to what your pastor and compatriots are preaching and read a science book and see for yourself what the theory encompasses.
To compare the idea of creation with peer reviewed science is utter bollocks and by the way, I wouldn't even need bring up the big bang at all in any conversation regarding creation simply because it has absolutely nothing to do with primary origins but rather, the big bang theory deals with the origin of the universe and its development and nothing more. Of course abiogenesis and evolution may come up but you obviously posted them as strawman. Your op never even mentioned the latter two.

...the big bang theory deals with the origin of the universe and its development and nothing more.

Enough said ...lol

SMH

 

[Kerr]

I don't advocate religion but I do advocate Yeshua/Jesus. He I know exist by person experience.

I still trust science more then faith.

The way you find-out about anything you don't know ...in this case you try to met him (Yeshua/Jesus) according to his terms which he himself has set. If it's a lie then nothing can happen. It someone says Santa comes down chimneys with gifts on the 25th of Dec. ...all you have to do is wait to prove it's a lie, right?

It's just that simple to prove it to yourself ...it does mater what others think or don't know because it only maters that YOU know the truth.

It's something one can do in minutes ...if they REALLY wanted to know.

One day I did it when I was approached by him and have never looked back. In fact, the more I see of how things are going in this world the happier it makes me that I came to know him.

I thank GOD, he had mercy on me.

And what exactly do you think you can do to prove God exists?

Well, at least some of us can

Both you and me are good examples of those who can.

Nor does science as a religion substitute for unbiased truth

Science USE to be about seeking-out the truths of our natural universe and NOT about supporting scientific BELIEF systems currently in place.

Prove that is what science is doing. Historically, when science contradicts faith it is faith that is wrong.

 

[Kerr]

I would say it SHOULD NOT rely on faiths or beliefs held ...but there is already a trend which shows that's not the case.

I can Google Evolution being sited as FACT by many who teach science with no problem.

You can google anything, that is the thing with the internet. However, I must point out the difference between a scientific fact and a scientific theory. A scientific fact is what we have seen occur. I think we have seen evolution in action. A scientific theory explains why. That is where the theory of Evolution comes in.

EDIT:

This explains the case of evolution better then I can:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

 

[Amill]

Where do scientists say that there was a "bang" from nothing? DOH

But do scientists know exactly where the Universe came from and why it is here? Of course not, there's a lot of speculation but of course we don't have that well of an understanding yet. But will you see science pick a claim to follow based on nothing? No, it all revolves around evidence and data.

I'm not sure what the point of this topic is. Are you trying to say that people who don't know why the Universe is here are just as illogical as the people who claim that God created the Universe? How is the admittance that we don't have the answer, illogical or just as irrational as a claim based on no evidence? I'll stick with the idea that we don't know yet. There are cool ideas out there, who knows. The big bang theory is an explanation on the origin of our Universe, not the origin of everything.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I don't advocate religion but I do advocate Yeshua/Jesus. He I know exist by person experience.

Observation.

The way you find-out about anything you don't know ...in this case you try to met him (Yeshua/Jesus) according to his terms which he himself has set. If it's a lie then nothing can happen. It someone says Santa comes down chimneys with gifts on the 25th of Dec. ...all you have to do is wait to prove it's a lie, right?

It's just that simple to prove it to yourself ...it does mater what others think or don't know because it only maters that YOU know the truth.

The way you find out about anything you don't know is to use the scientific method. Observe, hypothesize, experiment, reproduce, theorize.

It's something one can do in minutes ...if they REALLY wanted to know.

One day I did it when I was approached by him and have never looked back. In fact, the more I see of how things are going in this world the happier it makes me that I came to know him.

I thank GOD, he had mercy on me.

Well, at least some of us can.

This is where your train jumps off the track. It can be said that there is subjective reality and objective reality. With a personal experience in god, the self can use life experience to validate the hypothesis and theorize - but only in the subjective laboratory of the self. You have erred by assuming data gathered from the subjective automatically applies to the objective reality. In does not. The concept of "repeatability" was introduced by Boyle a hundred and fifty years ago; and pretty much ends the "truth" of religion. No experimentation with religious experience has proven repeatable.

Nor does science as a religion substitute for unbiased truth.

Science is not your enemy. It can be your friend, but you should learn how it works; and how you use it yourself, before jumping down the necks of those who act in moderation using reason and logic. Science and religion both are merely tools to build understanding.

Science USE to be about seeking-out the truths of our natural universe and NOT about supporting scientific BELIEF systems currently in place.

Science is about using the scientific method to form useful theories that allow the human race in its entirety to grow in conscious awareness. Truth is a philosophical concept more than a scientific one. For instance, the law of gravity merely states, things fall down; yet the "truth" of my natural environment is that I'm sitting in my chair. Truth is thorny in the best of circumstances... but since you mentioned it:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." First line of the Bible. Does it say universe? Does it say bang? I would imagine that if one presumed to speak for the ultimate authority, the "unbiased truth" would have been you letting your words drag you into the pit.

Good thing there's science, huh?

 

[Tristesse]

I would say it SHOULD NOT rely on faiths or beliefs held ...but there is already a trend which shows that's not the case.

I can Google Evolution being sited as FACT by many who teach science with no problem.

Well, actually evolution is a fact, see fact and theory are not mutually exclusive. Evolution is a theory, which means it explains the phenomenon. But evolution is also a fact, which means it's the explanation for the fact that we observe. Change over time is a fact, but change over time is also evolution. Therefore evolution is both fact and theory. Just like gravity is both fact and theory.