TheKnight wrote:
So once again I ask you, how is it that science and religion are mutually exclusive?
My original post:
When life is examined I think most rational humans would see quite clearly that the universe and life is built from the bottom up, not top down. Single cells grow into multicells organisms, simple groups of cells work in a symbiotic co-operation to create more complex structures over time culminating presently at humans and their higher biological co-operative systems. Contrary to this all the major institutional religions are built on the yet to be proved top down premise that some super creature eg god skillfully made all these nifty little gadgets wound them up with a little clockwork key, and let them all loose to see what would happen like a kid in a very large sand pit.
Two thirds of the worlds population belong to one of the three main religions Christianity, Islam, Hinduism. It is this 4 billion people I am addressing. They all believe that life cannot exist without God/s. Recent evidence suggests to the contrary that life can in fact exist without God. Which theory is correct.
I am referring to standard religions where super natural (beyond Physics) deities (eg a God, Satan etc.) are argued as the basis for all things, implying, without God, life would not exist. In the quest to try and explain the big questions of "Where did we come from?", "How did we get here?", "Why are we here?", and "Where do we go when we die, Daddy?". Man has come up with various Theories.
In ancient times, viewed through the eyes of those who knew nothing of the spherical nature of earth, or of microbes, or proteins or kangaroos or airplanes or nano-particles or molecular engineering or atomic decay, came to the conclusion that life is so complex, with such diversity and interaction, that it could only be explained by the concept that only a superior intelligence (read GOD) would have the capability of assembling such an intricate end product ie Life. Top Down - creator makes mousetrap and implicit is that without a "creator" life could not exist.
The model was simple and easily understood and accepted, just like dad the carpenter, using skill and rudimentary maths, a hard working intelligent man and good father builds a house. ...And they were all happy.
After all, how else could you have a complex structure like a house if there was no intelligence behind its fabrication, its obviously not going to build itself. The concept seemed logical. It stuck.
It was also good because the answer to any annoying inquisitive children's question is simple,
God knows best,
God did it,
Its because God made it that way,
Because God says so. etc.
Gets rid of the kid, but is hardly informative and doesn't answer the original question. The sweet lull of this method of NOT thinking means any thing that is difficult to understand, such as "why has my daughter got polio", is that it is lovely gods idea of a good thing. So you accept it and get on with self survival.
OK Daddy show me this creator eg God.
Err right son, looking fruitlessly all around for god.
*Bright Idea*
Ha son you cannot see him he is invisible.
*Dad breathes a sigh of relief*
Yeah sure Dad.....
The model becomes more complex.
What began then as a simple concept to explain the unexplainable, was combined with the social law over centuries becoming religions which quickly became complex and institutionalized evolving into the vast bureaucratic multinational corporations of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism of today. (These three religions represent two thirds of the worlds population, some 4 billion people)
Most religions also suggest that we were "pre-assembled" as finished organisms, and that further, this "creator" interacts regularly, particularly and often uniquely, with the humans it has created, through "faith" and "prayer". Don't know if ants pray very much.
Recently. as technology has evolved, the ability to understand the deeper levels of our universe, through more sophisticated tools, has started to disclose the answers to many of the "Big Questions" once the domain of only theologians and are now, more and more being comprehended and answered with reason instead.
The question then becomes, if the initial reason for the presence of a god/spirit/intelligent creator was that it seemed the only possible solution to explain the "impossibly complex" universe we observe. Yet we now have evidence that not only is the "impossibly complex" possible, it is probable, ie that life did evolve from inanimate matter given time and a universe becoming more chaotic and complex naturally, simply following the laws of physics. Without the need for an intelligent designer. Nature usually works on a principle where the simplest solution is usually the correct one. Why would the less feasible more complex embodiment of this invisible entity be required? Its not natural,( in fact it could only be unnatural).
If you think the odds of randomly throwing a bunch of atoms at each other, and ending up with a working chain of DNA is long odds, whats the chance of coming up with the far more complex complete, fully functional and operational GOD in one hit?
So what is more logical?
A natural system that takes simple things gradually gaining complexity following the laws of physics over a long time (Bottom Up Construction). Or a system that relies on some mythical physics defying being, appearing out of nowhere, by some strange stroke of luck, of amazing complexity, that has massive powers and can whip up universes instantly in the blink of an eye and yet weighs nothing. (Top Down Construction) .
Do I hear Superman the Movie Theme song in the background.
This strange irrational unnatural entity, whom many believe in as if it is made of concrete, yet its properties are all unmeasurable. No shape, no size, no smell, no taste, no feel, Invisible of course, no sound, no mass, does not absorb or emit energy. If my young daughter told me this story, I would pat her on the head and comfort her letting continue to believe in her imaginary friend, knowing eventually her own common sense, as she grew older and more aware, would show her that this friend was just a virtual figment of her imagination.
So we have five possibilities
1. God exists but the Universe does not exist, it is purely a figment of our souls astral plane imagination of the perception of a virtual landscape. Are we really here?
2. The Universe is a subset of God (God can exist even if the Universe does not exits, this begs the question - Why?)
3. The Universe and God are Equivalent. (God is the universe, the Universe is God, if one exists both exists if one does not exist neither does the other).
4. God is a subset of the Universe ( The Universe can exist even if God does not)
5. God does not exist but the natural Universe does exist.
Is God really there? If we live in a cause and effect universe, and a god/spirit/creator exists, where did it come from? A god-god who was begot by a god-god-god from a god-god-god-god maybe? Or did it inseminate itself to exist.
This same argument applies to those who believe earths life comes from some extraterrestrial seed planted here by early martians or the like. I would ask the same question, from where did the original martian (or other extraterrestrial or God) come from, if not through a process basically identical to that best described as evolution?
If we are looking for the reason we are here. Everyday more and more and more evidence builds the case that that it is almost an inevitable natural process, due to the fact that the Universe becomes more chaotic and complex as time progresses. This creator dude who must by definition be an extremely complex organism itself, contradicts all we know about natural processes. So is God actually necessary for life to exist? If not, does God exist at all?
Can you have both? A universe that is built up and down at the same time. I Doubt it.
So its one or the other. Top down or bottom up. not both.
So perhaps the question is not whether God does or doesn't exist,
(Does a dream exist per say?)
but rather is God actually needed at all?
If all the complexity of the universe is simply a consequence of a series of simple ordinary natural physical interactions can we now relegate God out of the real world and into the museum of mythology.
Cheers
:run:
