All-Powerful God Always Right

[Sunstone]

Neither am I, by any stretch. However, I see this as vastly different than exercising my personal psychology in our limited world. We're talking the creator and ruler of the universe - we're talking about eternity.

It's a nice thought to say I'd stick to my moral compass, but really try to open yourself up to the scale of the situation and the fact that your moral compass might be incorrect in a larger scheme.

Perhaps you should study the ancient Greek myth of Prometheus.

 

[Alceste]

It doesn't necessarily follow that just because God is God, and God is Right about everything, that I, personally have to take orders from him. (I'm saying "him" because I just can't picture Guan Yin or Sarasvati bossing anybody around). Even if he's right, why can't he just do it himself if I'm uncomfortable doing it for him? Can't I just say "I revere your omniscient and infallible goodness, Lord, but if you want somebody to kill all the Jews for you, you're barking up the wrong tree. I hear Stranger, theKight, and Man Time Forgot are up for it though - maybe you'd have better luck with them..."

I can't understand why anyone would find that arrogant. Or, hehe, "hubris", hehe. My favourite. It never ceases to amaze me that people find a simple thing like independent thought so offensive and outrageous.

 

[Sunstone]

It never ceases to amaze me that people find a simple thing like independent thought so offensive and outrageous.

Control freaks.

 

[TheKnight]

That is nothing I said.

The sad part is that you don't see it. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to, then you'd have to see yourself as less arrogant.

It never ceases to amaze me that people find a simple thing like independent thought so offensive and outrageous.

Free thought is worthless if it is illogical.

 

[whereismynotecard]

I may depart from many fellow atheists in this regard, but if god made itself known to me in a way where I was completely convinced of its existence (god being an entity which created the universe, including us, and was all-powerful), and god commanded me to do something, I would do it.

This would be god's universe, and its rules would supercede any limited ideas I had formed myself. Regardless of whether I thought it was right or wrong, moral or immoral, if god told me to do it, it would be the correct thing to do. I would have no reasonable basis to resist the will of the creator and ruler of the universe, whether I understood the reasons or not.

Do any other atheists/non-theists agree with this viewpoint? If not, what would your basis be for resisting the wishes of god? Why do you think your morals would trump god's? What if each command was backed by a threat of eternal damnation/pain/suffering for non-compliance - would that change your response? What if each command was backed by a promise of eternal bliss/joy/ecstasy for compliance - would that change your response?

I wouldn't follow his rules unless I agreed with them, because just because someone is in charge doesn't mean I should have to do what they say. If God threatened me with pain and suffering, I might do what he says more, but more than likely I'd just behave how I do in real life: I follow the rules to a certain point (like the laws, so I won't go to prison) or the rules my mom sets for her house (so she won't be mad at me) but I would probably still do things "wrong" and hope God didn't notice, or that his threats were just to scare me, but he really wouldn't actually act the threats out. Since God is supposed to be seen as a teacher/father/mother figure, I would assume even if his children did anything wrong, he wouldn't really send them to damnation. I would just follow the rules that weren't too big of a deal to me, and if I really disagreed with any of them, I'd do what I want and hope he was just kidding.

In school they always threatened us with punishments, and my parents always threatened punishments for actions they disagreed with too, but most of the time instead of the punishment they said, it would be a lighter punishment or no punishment at all, because really, they didn't want to punish me and had just said it so I would be "good."

 

[Willamena]

But this logic applies to every other being in existence, including those that have beliefs which are contradictory to your own. How do you reconcile this?

MTF

Omniscience.

 

[idea]

Is All-powerful God always right?
or better way of putting it...
All-powerful God always does what is right.


There is a famous little set of questions highly debated among the Christians community which are:
Is it right because God sais it is right?
or
Does God do it because it is right?

#1 makes "right" subjective to God
#2 puts right/wrong outside of God - makes God answerable to something outside of Himself.

I go with #2.

 

[idea]

If God threatened me with pain and suffering, I might do what he says more...

God is not the one who causes pain and suffering - He just wanrs us of natural consequences for taking certain actions... like a mother telling a child "don't touch the hot stove". The mother does not cause the pain, the stove does.

 

[Alceste]

God is not the one who causes pain and suffering - He just wanrs us of natural consequences for taking certain actions... like a mother telling a child "don't touch the hot stove". The mother does not cause the pain, the stove does.

But it's not quite like that, is it - it's more like a mother saying "worship me as the queen of the universe and obey me unquestioningly or I'll burn your hand on the stove".

 

[Willamena]

The sad part is that you don't see it. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to...

For each of us, it's all about those expectations.

 

[Willamena]

But it's not quite like that, is it - it's more like a mother saying "worship me as the queen of the universe and obey me unquestioningly or I'll burn your hand on the stove".

...or you'll burn your hand on the stove.

 

[CarlinKnew]

But it's not quite like that, is it - it's more like a mother saying "worship me as the queen of the universe and obey me unquestioningly or I'll burn your hand on the stove".

More like, " ... or I'll lock you inside the oven and burn you alive," and yet that isn't harsh enough to compare to the Christian god. At least the kid in the oven gets to die.

 

[Willamena]

More like, " ... or I'll lock you inside the oven and burn you alive," and yet that isn't harsh enough to compare to the Christian god. At least the kid in the oven gets to die.

That's quite a hell you have, there, Carlin.

Of course, it assumes there is an "inside you" or a "you, inside", to look into.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That's quite a hell you have, there, Carlin.

Of course, it assumes there is an "inside you" or a "you, inside", to look into.

You may as well be speaking Greek.

 

[Willamena]

You may as well be speaking Greek.

Fortunately, at least one Greek that I know of had a clue.

Where/what is the oven that things are locked inside of?

 

[CarlinKnew]

Fortunately, at least one Greek that I know of had a clue.

Where/what is the oven that things are locked inside of?

I'm sure you know I was referring to the Christian lake of fire, so what are you getting at? Let's not dance around it

 

[Willamena]

I'm sure you know I was referring to the Christian lake of fire, so what are you getting at? Let's not dance around it

Is that Hell?

 

[CarlinKnew]

Is that Hell?

:yes:

 

[Willamena]

:yes:

The only place I've found it referenced is here, in Revelations 20:14 (a text traditionally considered to be a revelation, not prediction):

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm curious, first, why you think all Christians hold to revelations being something literally accurate?

How is that Earth and Sky literally flee from the prescence of a white throne?
What are the literal books that were opened by each?
Which sea is it that literally "gives up the dead" so that others might judge them?
Is death, as a concept, limited to the lake of fire according to this story? (Hades might actually like it, as a vacation resort: we never know.)
What does it mean to experience a "second death" in the lake of fire?
If you have an eraser, and are very clever, could you commit someone to the lake of fire?

 

[Alceste]

...or you'll burn your hand on the stove.

"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.." Revelation 20:10

...that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb." Revelation 14:10

Let's be honest. The Bible is very clear that hell is not something you do to yourself by not following God's gentle, well-meaning, motherly advice, it's something God does to you if you make him angry.