"Oh my god, you're SO white."

[PureX]

But what I'm saying is that they see how white people live, and white people see how they live, too! It's not like non-white communities have some sort of bubble around them and remain a mystery to everyone else!

Actually, it's a lot like that. Most white people have no interest in or experience of the minority cultures living among them. They live surrounded by other white people and know nothing else.

I think this is one of the points where our arguments diverge so much. You think white people are out in la-la land and barely have any idea other cultures exist, whereas I know that to be very far from the case.

I don't think you have a realistic image of America. I think you're ignoring the millions of communities out there that are so predominantly white that they have no real interaction at all with people of other cultures.

Fear doesn't excuse his behavior. Period.

I wasn't excusing his behavior, I was simply explaining it.

I understand that people are still bigoted towards people. But just because other's are bigoted towards him and/or his race doesn't excuse him to be bigoted and hateful to an entire race in return.
It's just as wrong, no matter who's doing it.

Right and wrong are usually irrelevant to realty. You're nice and safe in your white world. He's not. And he knows it. Righteousness isn't going to protect him. And he knows that, too.

On the positive side, though, things are getting better. I hope that boy you met will see that.

Some (whites) do know of the cultures they mimic. Not all, certainly, but some. There are white people that grow up in neighborhoods and cultural areas where they're the minority.

This is a very rare scenario, and a meaningless example.

It doesn't change the fact that it's exposure to ideas from other cultures.
And I'm sorry, but have you heard some of the heartfelt rap music out there? Yeah, a lot of it that makes it to the radio is produced just to sell records, but there are a ton of artists out there who produce albums based on their culture and experiences within that culture. And a lot of white people listen to that music.

There is some exposure through music and dance, but that effects only a very young and small number of white people. It is partly why things are getting better, though.

You can always find exceptions to the general trend. But I'm still talking about the general trend. And my position is still valid.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of any non-whites who have had to deal with racism for 200 years. Nor any white person who has been a racist for 200 years. People don't tend to live that long

But the effect of their behavior certainly does last that long. And it's the effect of white culture on others that whites are so ignorant of.

AND, even if white people did live in the vegetative-like state that kind of ignorance would require in order to be sustained, it STILL doesn't make racial jibes and insults right. It's STILL bigotry.

If it takes some jibes to help wake them up, I'm fine with that. (And I do think that's what it takes, and more.) What's "right and wrong" is usually not all that relevant to reality.

Are you sure you're not the one who's unwilling to remove the blinders and see that people should be equal? And that experiences differ from individual to individual and culture to culture?

The fact that you absolutely refuse to see that bigotry is bigotry, no matter who is doing it, doesn't exactly make it seem like you're open-minded. Same with your blatant refusal to assign any kind of responsibility to minorities for their actions.

I have already acknowledged bigotry, and that it's wrong. You're mischaracterizing me. I'm simply not discussing racial bigotry at this time. And you can't seem to let it go.

Didn't you say in an earlier post that bigotry is wrong?

Yes, I did, so please keep that in mind. I also said several times, now, that what's right and wrong are usually not very relevant to reality.

Why are you encouraging such a close-minded, hateful behavior pattern?

I'm not. You just can't seem to characterize "truth to power" any other way.

 

[PureX]

mball, stellify and elessar...your arguments are great. :clap

Blech, but I can't bring myself to discuss this with Purex right now. I don't respect him at all anymore and I am absolutely shocked at what's coming out of his mouth. I seriously, seriously hope this is not a common sentiment among minorities. I don't think they could ever be as close-minded as Purex.

That's because you're just sooooo White. hahaha

 

[Elessar]

Actually, it's a lot like that. Most white people have no interest in or experience of the minority cultures living among them. They live surrounded by other white people and know nothing else.
I don't think you have a realistic image of America. I think you're ignoring the millions of communities out there that are so predominantly white that they have no real interaction at all with people of other cultures.
I wasn't excusing his behavior, I was simply explaining it.

Right and wrong are usually irrelevant to realty. You're nice and safe in your white world. He's not. And he knows it. Righteousness isn't going to protect him. And he knows that, too.

On the positive side, though, things are getting better. I hope that boy you met will see that.
This is a very rare scenario, and a meaningless example.
There is some exposure through music and dance, but that effects only a very young and small number of white people. It is partly why things are getting better, though.

You can always find exceptions to the general trend. But I'm still talking about the general trend. And my position is still valid.
But the effect of their behavior certainly does last that long. And it's the effect of white culture on others that whites are so ignorant of.

If it takes some jibes to help wake them up, I'm fine with that. (And I do think that's what it takes, and more.) What's "right and wrong" is usually not all that relevant to reality.
I have already acknowledged bigotry, and that it's wrong. You're mischaracterizing me. I'm simply not discussing racial bigotry at this time. And you can't seem to let it go.
Yes, I did, so please keep that in mind. I also said several times, now, that what's right and wrong are usually not very relevant to reality.
I'm not. You just can't seem to characterize "truth to power" any other way.

You have totally ignored my point - that there is no such thing as "white" culture and that it is an imagined homogeneity by even whites. There is no such thing as "white" culture whatsoever. There may be people who happen to be white who have never experienced a culture outside their own, but this is not "white" culture. This is their particular culture.

For example, the "all-white" community in parts of Cherry Hill, NJ is almost entirely Conservative or Reform Jewish in religion, and almost entirely Jewish in ethnicity and culture. You'll find nary a Christmas Tree in their community, and Yiddish language terms are the rule, not the exception, in their dialect. These people, despite their "whiteness", came to the United States, mostly, in the 19th to 20th centuries, after they have lived in Europe for two millennia as an oppressed minority (not to mention their cousins who stayed in Europe and were wholesale massacred in the 1940s by Hitler), despite their perceived "whiteness" today

Meanwhile, the "all-white" community in parts of South Philadelphia, PA, is almost entirely Roman Catholic in religion, and almost entirely Italian in ethnicity and culture. You'll never find a menorah in their community, and to hear Italian spoken on the street is, to this day, not abnormal. These people, despite their "whiteness", came to the United States in the 19th to 20th centuries. Until the 1950s, U.S. law and segregation rules in the south considered Italians to be "black", and they were oppressed by the same rules, despite their perceived "whiteness" today.

There are very few similarities between these communities, yet you decide to call them both "white" and assign to them the same generalities and the same cultural traits. I assure you, having had friends and relatives in both communities, they are no more similar to each other than either one is to African American culture (in which I also have friends and relatives).

 

[stacey bo bacey]

That's because you're just sooooo White. hahaha

At this point, coming from ANYONE else, that would have merited a micro-chuckle...but not when it's coming from a racist.

 

[PureX]

You have totally ignored my point - that there is no such thing as "white" culture and that it is an imagined homogeneity by even whites. There is no such thing as "white" culture whatsoever. There may be people who happen to be white who have never experienced a culture outside their own, but this is not "white" culture. This is their particular culture.

For example, the "all-white" community in parts of Cherry Hill, NJ is almost entirely Conservative or Reform Jewish in religion, and almost entirely Jewish in ethnicity and culture. You'll find nary a Christmas Tree in their community, and Yiddish language terms are the rule, not the exception, in their dialect. These people, despite their "whiteness", came to the United States, mostly, in the 19th to 20th centuries, after they have lived in Europe for two millennia as an oppressed minority (not to mention their cousins who stayed in Europe and were wholesale massacred in the 1940s by Hitler), despite their perceived "whiteness" today

Meanwhile, the "all-white" community in parts of South Philadelphia, PA, is almost entirely Roman Catholic in religion, and almost entirely Italian in ethnicity and culture. You'll never find a menorah in their community, and to hear Italian spoken on the street is, to this day, not abnormal. These people, despite their "whiteness", came to the United States in the 19th to 20th centuries. Until the 1950s, U.S. law and segregation rules in the south considered Italians to be "black", and they were oppressed by the same rules, despite their perceived "whiteness" today.

There are very few similarities between these communities, yet you decide to call them both "white" and assign to them the same generalities and the same cultural traits. I assure you, having had friends and relatives in both communities, they are no more similar to each other than either one is to African American culture (in which I also have friends and relatives).

I ignored your post because you were insisting of talking apples while I was already talking oranges. I saw no point in wasting time talking past each other.

I AM DISCUSSING GENERALITIES. If you want to join the discussion, you're welcome to.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I ignored your post because you were insisting of talking apples while I was already talking oranges. I saw no point in wasting time talking past each other.

I AM DISCUSSING GENERALITIES. If you want to join the discussion, you're welcome to.

There is no way to generalize "white culture". It doesn't exist in the real world.

 

[Magic Man]

Because being in the cultural majority causes myopia. It causes people to become unable to recognize their own effect. And it often takes an insult to awaken them from this kind of cultural blindness. The truth is that these aren't really insults. They just feel that way to the status quo, who have stumbled through life imagining that they were so much more righteous than they are.

It's necessarily an insult when it's not true. Assuming it about all white people means that it's going to be untrue in some cases, probably many cases. For instance, calling me culturally myopic would be untrue, and therefore an insult, but I'm white.

Yes.

Do you actually believe this? I'm white and I'm not culturally myopic. There are many, many people just like me in that sense.

It's not "bad" to generalize.

That's true, but it is bad to generalize and assume that your generalization holds true for every person of a certain skin color, for instance (you know, exactly what you're doing?).

 

[Magic Man]

Actually, it's a lot like that. Most white people have no interest in or experience of the minority cultures living among them. They live surrounded by other white people and know nothing else.

Any chance you want to join us in the 2000's? Or would you rather keep this ridiculous, outdated, racist view of things?

I don't think you have a realistic image of America. I think you're ignoring the millions of communities out there that are so predominantly white that they have no real interaction at all with people of other cultures.
I wasn't excusing his behavior, I was simply explaining it.

Honestly, it's you who lacks the realistic image of America. I think you're ignoring the millions of communities out there that are so predominantly black, or Asian, or Hispanic that they have no real interaction at all with people of other cultures. Also, whether there are that many "predominantly white communities" out there, the fact is that they don't contain all of the white Americans. That means that there are at the absolute least some white Americans who aren't culturally myopic.

I have already acknowledged bigotry, and that it's wrong.

Where? I guess I missed that part after it was mixed in with all of your posts promoting racism.

You're mischaracterizing me. I'm simply not discussing racial bigotry at this time.

Yes, you are. You even told Christine that it was OK, specifically.

 

[Magic Man]

I ignored your post because you were insisting of talking apples while I was already talking oranges. I saw no point in wasting time talking past each other.

I AM DISCUSSING GENERALITIES. If you want to join the discussion, you're welcome to.

Yes, you're discussing generalities which are not even true. You're also discussing racism and asserting that it's acceptable sometimes.

 

[Elessar]

I ignored your post because you were insisting of talking apples while I was already talking oranges. I saw no point in wasting time talking past each other.

I AM DISCUSSING GENERALITIES. If you want to join the discussion, you're welcome to.

Let me make this perfectly clear once more

THERE IS NO "GENERAL" WHITE RACE. THERE IS NO GENERAL "WHITE" CULTURE. THERE IS NO WHITE. WHITE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT INVENTED BY RACISTS.

The Italian, the Jew, the Pole, the Anglo-Saxon and the Iranian - they all have very little, culturally, in common. Almost nothing, in fact. The Italian and the Pole are both generally Catholic; the Jew...well, I'm not even going to dignify that; the Anglo-Saxon, generally Protestant, and the Iranian, generally Muslim. They speak in different dialects. They celebrate different holidays. They have their own separate communities and don't see one another as being any more similar than African Americans or Hispanics or Asians or any other "race".

There is no "white culture", so to make generalities about the same is obviously incorrect.

 

[PureX]

There is no way to generalize "white culture". It doesn't exist in the real world.

None of us even knows what the "real world" is. All we have are our specific little piles of information that we've acquired from personal experience, and a few general concepts we've gleaned from them. We survive by generalizing. We couldn't form probabilities or make a single reasonable decision in life without it. We all generalize all the time. We all assume things that we don't really know all the time. We're all flying by the seat of our pants, in the dark. What's a few racial slurs among friends, and fellow idiots, especially if they have the effect of waking us up out of a little cultural myopia.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

None of us even knows what the "real world" is. All we have are our specific little piles of information that we've acquired from personal experience, and a few general concepts we've gleaned from them. We survive by generalizing. We couldn't form probabilities or make a single reasonable decision in life without it. We all generalize all the time. We all assume things that we don't really know all the time. We're all flying by the seat of our pants, in the dark.

Right...but anyone with at least half a brain who takes two seconds to think about it would realize that there is no basis for forming generalizations about "white people", specifically when referring to "white culture", as there is no common thread to build any generalizations on other than a broad range of skin tones.

 

[Magic Man]

None of us even knows what the "real world" is. All we have are our specific little piles of information that we've acquired from personal experience, and a few general concepts we've gleaned from them. We survive by generalizing. We couldn't form probabilities or make a single reasonable decision in life without it. We all generalize all the time. We all assume things that we don't really know all the time. We're all flying by the seat of our pants, in the dark. What's a few racial slurs among friends, and fellow idiots, especially if they have the effect of waking us up out of a little cultural myopia

Be that as it may, we all agree on certain things that make up the "real world".

I find it funny that you would tell someone else in this thread to grow up. It just seems a little hypocritical.

We survive by generalizing. We make friends by realizing that generalities aren't true in every case.

I also find it odd that you make assumptions about everyone, although at this point I shouldn't. We don't all generalize all of the time. You might, but the rest of us don't.

"What's a few racial slurs among friends"? Really? Please tell me you were joking here. Although, since you've been ignoring all of the posts by me and others that shoot your whole argument down, I guess I can't expect a response. I'll assume you were joking, then, or else I'll lose what little respect I have left for you.

 

[PureX]

It's necessarily an insult when it's not true. Assuming it about all white people means that it's going to be untrue in some cases, probably many cases. For instance, calling me culturally myopic would be untrue, and therefore an insult, but I'm white.

The very fact that you would write that is evidence of your myopia. That you think you know other cultures so well only shows how shallow the depth of that knowledge likely is. If you really did know something of them, you would no longer presume to possess such wisdom.

Do you actually believe this? I'm white and I'm not culturally myopic. There are many, many people just like me in that sense.

LOL! There are many who THINK they aren't myopic. Which is mostly why they ARE so myopic.

That's true, but it is bad to generalize and assume that your generalization holds true for every person of a certain skin color, for instance (you know, exactly what you're doing?).

I am generalizing, which means I am NOT assuming that my generalizations hold true for everyone. If I were to assume that, I would be specifying, not generalizing.

 

[Magic Man]

The very fact that you would write that is evidence of your myopia. That you think you know other cultures so well only shows how shallow the depth of that knowledge likely is. If you really did know something of them, you would no longer presume to possess such wisdom.

Wow. So, if I claim that I know the answer to 2+2, I obviously don't know it? Does that make sense to you? This is not a matter of being humble. I can't say "I'm so great because I'm humble". In that case your reasoning would work. However, we're talking about experience. Does a biologist who has worked with a certain animal for years or studied something in particular not make the claim that they understand that particular thing? This is very convoluted reasoning, and I'm surprised it came from you.

LOL! There are many who THINK they aren't myopic. Which is mostly why they ARE so myopic.

Riiiight. And in your opinion, a white person is myopic no matter what, and there's no way to convince you otherwise. Basically, it's "I believe in God. Whatever you say to discredit God or to try to convince me to not believe you say because of the devil's influence". Basically, there's no way to ever convince you that there is a non-myopic white person.

I am generalizing, which means I am NOT assuming that my generalizations hold true for everyone. If I were to assume that, I would be specifying, not generalizing.

No, when you generalize, you make a statement about a large group of people, like "White people are myopic". Unless you clarify your generalization, you imply that all white people are myopic, which means that you're assuming your generalization is holding true for everyone. Also, just from all of your comments here, you clearly do think your generalizations hold true for each individual, as evidenced by the first part I quoted right in this very post.

 

[Magic Man]

The fact is, PureX, that I'm not culturally myopic. I may not understand all the intricacies of all of the minorities' cultures in America, but I am aware of their situations, and I do understand at least a little about their cultures. I studied languages in school. I like languages and cultures. I like learning about others. When I work with or meet people from other cultures, I like to learn as much as I can about them. I know it doesn't fit your nice, neat, little scheme of how things work, but it's the truth. You can continue to ignore it, if you'd like, but just remember that you're being willfully ignorant.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

Hey guys, new drinking game! Every time Purex says "myopia" or "myopic" take HALF a shot. We should be wasted in about 2 minutes.

 

[Magic Man]

Hey guys, new drinking game! Every time Purex says "myopia" or "myopic" take HALF a shot. We should be wasted in about 2 minutes.

Oo Oo! But only if you're white! I mean, really, only myopic rich white kids play those stupid drinking games, right?

 

[stacey bo bacey]

Oo Oo! But only if you're white! I mean, really, only myopic rich white kids play those stupid drinking games, right?

I'll drink to that.

 

[PureX]

Wow. So, if I claim that I know the answer to 2+2, I obviously don't know it? Does that make sense to you? This is not a matter of being humble. I can't say "I'm so great because I'm humble". In that case your reasoning would work. However, we're talking about experience. Does a biologist who has worked with a certain animal for years or studied something in particular not make the claim that they understand that particular thing? This is very convoluted reasoning, and I'm surprised it came from you.

It's called a paradox. And grown ups understand that behind what most simpletons call "the truth" what we really will find is paradox. The more you learn about a culture, the less you realize you know. Yet it's realizing your own ignorance that will finally open you up to really being able to interact with people from other cultures. This is the paradox.

And in your opinion, a white person is myopic no matter what, and there's no way to convince you otherwise. Basically, it's "I believe in God. Whatever you say to discredit God or to try to convince me to not believe you say because of the devil's influence". Basically, there's no way to ever convince you that there is a non-myopic white person.

What about the concept of generalizing don't you understand? Generally speaking, white people are culturally myopic because they are living in an overwhelming cultural majority (here in the U.S.). This says nothing about "all" white people. This says nothing about it being impossible for a white person not to be myopic. This says nothing about ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, period. It's a generality. It's speaking in general terms, and is positing a general observation/conclusion.

No, when you generalize, you make a statement about a large group of people, like "White people are myopic". Unless you clarify your generalization, you imply that all white people are myopic, which means that you're assuming your generalization is holding true for everyone.

This is simply wrong. I am implying through my generalizations that MOST white people are culturally myopic. Not that all of them are.