=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[Ben Masada]

Once, I was asked if there was anything bad Jesus did in his life. My answer was:

Yes, there was something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does
not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn to her. His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her no-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven't come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following him.

When he couldn't take any longer, he stopped and told her: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her
daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got
what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben: :sad:

 

[Riverwolf]

There are parts of the gospels, such as this part, where I can say with certainty that it's not what Jesus actually did or said.

This was probably the construct of the author. It contradicts the rest of the entire New Testament, and the rest of the gospel and other three.

 

[Quagmire]

There's a lot of assumption in your interpretation of this story, Ben.

For instance;

Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her
daughter.

His actual reaction to her humble reply was;

Matt.15:28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

That doesn't sound like exasperation to me, it sounds like admiration.

There a numerous possible explanations for why he initially rejected her; maybe he was trying to use the situation to demonstrate the value of humility to his followers?

 

[linwood]

That doesn't sound like exasperation to me, it sounds like admiration.

It sounds to me more like a scrap thrown to a faithful dog.

 

[Quagmire]

It sounds to me more like a scrap thrown to a faithful dog.

Saving her daughter's life is a "scrap"?

I can only see this story as a demonstration of arrogance and lack of compassion on Jesus' part if you value someone's words over their actions.

Considering that all through the gospels Jesus talks about faith as the ultimate human virtue, and even criticizes his discilples for lack thereof, telling this woman "you have great faith" is high praise.

 

[Charity]

Good to see you back Ben.........

 

[ayani]

this passage kind of startled me as well, when i read it. few Bible commentaries i've seen care to do much wth it, or attempt to explain it.

what is true, is that while Jesus' person and message was for all peoples, His earthly ministry was confined largely to His own people. He did not come only for the people of Israel, though at certain points in His ministry He was sent specifically to them. other times He preaches among Samaritans, and heals Gentiles.

initially when this woman begins to cry out to them, the disciples ask Jesus to send her away. He does not respond at first, neither sending her away, nor hearing her,and repeats the import of His ministry to His own people, the chosen nation of God- being their Messiah. He came first for the Jew, then the Gentile.

when He speaks to her, He compares the people of her region to pet dogs in the master's house. Biblically, this is exactly how these people were thought of, being Gentile peoples remaining in the land given over the the Hebrews by God. her ancestors had once been a creat civilization, yet their legacy became one of incredible sin. God gave their land over to His chosen people, to destroy all traces of the culture that was there, and begin anew, as a light of His truth to the surrounding nations. some Gentile peoples remained in this land, and were thought of as servants or dogs in the house of Israel, whcih would not be inaccurate if one looks at the entire history of Israel. these nations often rose up against Israel militarily, and their cultural practices (such as idol worship and sacrificing their children to their gods) often served as stumbling blocks for God's people.

interestingly, this woman seemed to have recognized Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, as she calls Him "Son of David".

the woman pleads her case, insisting that even foreigners and the decendents of idolatrous Gentiles (and past enemies of the people of Israel) should have a share in what is given to God's people, and Jesus agrees. He recognizes her great faith, and heals her daughter on that basis.

Jesus does not identify this woman as anything especially out of whack culturally, and He is not doing the same as calling her something randomly insulting. He speaks within an historical, Biblical context, and heals her daugher based on her faith in Him, despite her being a Gentile, and a Canaanite to boot.

 

[Ben Masada]

There are parts of the gospels, such as this part, where I can say with certainty that it's not what Jesus actually did or said.

This was probably the construct of the author. It contradicts the rest of the entire New Testament, and the rest of the gospel and other three.

Can we deduct from your statement therefore, that the claim of Divine inspiration for the Gospels is baseless and destitute of all commonsense?

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

There's a lot of assumption in your interpretation of this story, Ben.

For instance;


His actual reaction to her humble reply was;

Matt.15:28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

That doesn't sound like exasperation to me, it sounds like admiration.

There a numerous possible explanations for why he initially rejected her; maybe he was trying to use the situation to demonstrate the value of humility to his followers?

I would definitely take your word for it if there was no precedence in the life of Jesus to indicate his aversion to Gentiles. Every time he sent his disciples to spread his gospel about the Kingdom of God, he would warn them not to take it to the Gentiles or even to enter a Samaritan town. That's in Matthew 10:1-10. And what did the disciples were bringing in terms of the Kingdom of God? Some of the things that Gentile woman asked of Jesus.

Ben:

 

[Ben Masada]

It sounds to me more like a scrap thrown to a faithful dog.

As I can see, you got the idea, Linwood.

Ben :clap

 

[Ben Masada]

Good to see you back Ben.........

I am the one happy to see that sexy tiger looking at me. Yes, darling, I am back and with a new Lap Top. My old one got broken and I had to buy a new one. How are you doing? Have some cookies for me? I am desperate to enjoy them right out of your lovely hands. Well, let me contain myself before I am reported. Today I feel quite romantic. :drool:

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

what is true, is that while Jesus' person and message was for all peoples, His earthly ministry was confined largely to His own people. He did not come only for the people of Israel, though at certain points in His ministry He was sent specifically to them. other times He preaches among Samaritans, and heals Gentiles.

Ben: Hi Ayani, believe me, I do not agree with Jesus' attitude in this case. I wish the fact was an interpolation. But what Christian would interpolate such a thing? Now, with regards to what you say above that Jesus did not come only for the People of Israel, the opposite is exactly what the text says in Matthew 15:24. "My mission is ONLY for the House of Israel." That's the New American version of the Bible. The KJV uses the word "but". "...but for the House of Israel," which means the same.

and repeats the import of His ministry to His own people, the chosen nation of God- being their Messiah. He came first for the Jew, then the Gentile.

Ben: "Being their Messiah!" Who is saying this, you or Paul? Jesus never claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. "Then the Gentile!" Can you quote him saying that he came
first to the Jew and then to the Gentile?

God gave their land over to His chosen people, to destroy all traces of the culture that was there, and begin anew, as a light of His truth to the surrounding nations.

Ben: Here yes, you are in tune with the Scriptures, because Isaiah did say that Israel had been given as light unto the nations.

some Gentile peoples remained in this land, and were thought of as servants or dogs in the house of Israel, whcih would not be inaccurate if one looks at the entire history of Israel.

Ben: I am not too sure what you mean by this. I have never met a Jew to consider Gentiles as dogs but in the NT, and believe it or not, Jesus of all people.

interestingly, this woman seemed to have recognized Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, as she calls Him "Son of David".

Ben: I would like to bring to your attention that to call someone "son of David" does not mean to recognize him as the Jewish Messiah. Such an expression is very common in Hebrew here in Israel when one expects to get from another an exceptional favor. Anyway, Judah, which was promised to David to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever, became known as Messiah ben David. (I Kings 11:36) It means the whole nation is "ben-David" or son of David.

the woman pleads her case, insisting that even foreigners and the decendents of idolatrous Gentiles (and past enemies of the people of Israel) should have a share in what is given to God's people, and Jesus agrees. He recognizes her great faith, and heals her daughter on that basis.

Ben: Why would Jesus have to rub it in by complimenting her faith? Don't you realize that he was trying to erase a little of his prior hostility?

He speaks within an historical, Biblical context, and heals her daugher based on her faith in Him, despite her being a Gentile, and a Canaanite to boot.

Ben: Again, I have a problem understanding this "historical Biblical context" you refer to. You have the right to your opinion, but mine is that when he stopped to speak to her, he was determined to even satisfy her request, only as long as she quit disturbing the peace of the group.

Ben: :run:

 

[Riverwolf]

Can we deduct from your statement therefore, that the claim of Divine inspiration for the Gospels is baseless and destitute of all commonsense?

Ben

That's one option. Another is to take the Qur'an's perspective on it, that the gospel was corrupted.

I pretty much believe that. Jesus the Sage had taught revolutionary ideas and concepts to the Jews, but then his teachings were corrupted, and people started attributing things and sayings to Jesus that he never said or did, and eventually he was branded the messiah prophesied of in Isaiah.

The gospels do retain, I think, the most important of Jesus's teachings(i.e., the Sermon on the Mount, Matthiew 5-7), but mixed in the bag are things that are not by Jesus but evangelicals.

That's my opinion, anyway. I haven't done a lot of research into the history of the gospels.

 

[IF_u_knew]

I was ready to agree with you, Ben… but had to hold my peace. Now, I know why. It does hurt the children (on either side) when the meat that they so desperately crave is thrown to those who prefer ashes over Beauty; the ones who are seeking something… whether comfort; joy; riches; blessings… whatever it is… something now. They do not love the Law and they flatter with the tongue in order to get the immediate rewards from Beauty.

Now…something that came to me concerning the topic and gave me the different perspective will take putting on one's thinking cap and seeing this allegorically in order to catch the obvious correlations. I will not draw the lines too much for anyone.. the words are there and I have paid much for the understandings. BUT, let me note: I am NOT condoning the worship or following of Jesus (the man)... I simply see the story of Jesus being allegorical and have no proof of his existence; nor do I need it since the worship of images is strictly forbidden by G.d... the only true Saviour of the soul.

Canaanite: merchant; trader
Genesis 9:
21And he (Noah) drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
(Ben, the backward view should give insights into what I see as well).

Needless to say, Ham is cursed for looking upon the nakedness of his father.
And in verse 27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Japheth is the middle brother and is identical to the word used in Noah's blessing in Genesis 9: 27. The verb of this name occurs most often in combination with the word for mouth. Derivatives: opening, doorway, drawn sword, utterance, key, engraving.
Even further interesting is a study into the name of Japheth's son (allegorically speaking and drawing connection with the allegory of Jesus).

And one more thought, the Laws of G.d should never be used as mirror to place in front of another; but rather they are a mirror to look at oneself. They are perfect for converting the soul… but to see it used for pride of oneself (on one side) and shame for others (on the other side) is quite disheartening.
To those who love the Laws and ways of G.d, well, to see Beauty given away to those who give no regard to the depth of Love in the Laws and the Word (not Jesus, but THE Word), it is possible for wounds to be made.

There are those who would trade Beauty for ashes; so to those who would choose to trade ashes for Beauty, it does hurt to see any one giving the meat and Love of the Word to the former group, no? The ones who have gained Truthful insight into the Laws and the Word did not gain them through flatteries or through one day of crying for their sorry state. They gained it through consistently grieving over the perversion of G.d's gorgeous Ways (not speaking, again, of the worshiping of the image going on) and it is the perversions that keeps them grieving; not to be fully satisfied until the foundation is made straight once again. And because of this understanding, they are more in desperate need of what some hold. Just because one understands, does not mean they are not lacking… it more likely means they are craving even more; just for the right reasons.

Of course, it all depends on how it is viewed whether what he did was wrong or right. Certainly the worship of the image of Jesus is wrong… so, those who choose to do so, or to worship any image rather than G.d, why do they deserve what should be given to the children who know the voice of their G.d, the Saviour, and seek it whole heartedly for what it is and not what it can bring them? Now, I see this allegorically and thus, I am unsure that what I am saying will make any sense.
And then again, what do I know? Just offering up another view, since I can actually see this from a myriad of angles… just, considering; this one kind of seemed to be a valid view to bring forth.

(again... giving off this warning to say, do not take this as a point chalked up for those who worship the image of Jesus or buy into the paganistic literal views written. I am highly opposed to such views).

 

[Ben Masada]

I was ready to agree with you, Ben… but had to hold my peace. Now, I know why. It does hurt the children (on either side) when the meat that they so desperately crave is thrown to those who prefer ashes over Beauty; the ones who are seeking something… whether comfort; joy; riches; blessings… whatever it is… something now. They do not love the Law and they flatter with the tongue in order to get the immediate rewards from Beauty.

Now…something that came to me concerning the topic and gave me the different perspective will take putting on one's thinking cap and seeing this allegorically in order to catch the obvious correlations. I will not draw the lines too much for anyone.. the words are there and I have paid much for the understandings. BUT, let me note: I am NOT condoning the worship or following of Jesus (the man)... I simply see the story of Jesus being allegorical and have no proof of his existence; nor do I need it since the worship of images is strictly forbidden by G.d... the only true Saviour of the soul.

Canaanite: merchant; trader
Genesis 9:
21And he (Noah) drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
(Ben, the backward view should give insights into what I see as well).

Needless to say, Ham is cursed for looking upon the nakedness of his father.
And in verse 27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Japheth is the middle brother and is identical to the word used in Noah's blessing in Genesis 9: 27. The verb of this name occurs most often in combination with the word for mouth. Derivatives: opening, doorway, drawn sword, utterance, key, engraving.
Even further interesting is a study into the name of Japheth's son (allegorically speaking and drawing connection with the allegory of Jesus).

And one more thought, the Laws of G.d should never be used as mirror to place in front of another; but rather they are a mirror to look at oneself. They are perfect for converting the soul… but to see it used for pride of oneself (on one side) and shame for others (on the other side) is quite disheartening.
To those who love the Laws and ways of G.d, well, to see Beauty given away to those who give no regard to the depth of Love in the Laws and the Word (not Jesus, but THE Word), it is possible for wounds to be made.

There are those who would trade Beauty for ashes; so to those who would choose to trade ashes for Beauty, it does hurt to see any one giving the meat and Love of the Word to the former group, no? The ones who have gained Truthful insight into the Laws and the Word did not gain them through flatteries or through one day of crying for their sorry state. They gained it through consistently grieving over the perversion of G.d's gorgeous Ways (not speaking, again, of the worshiping of the image going on) and it is the perversions that keeps them grieving; not to be fully satisfied until the foundation is made straight once again. And because of this understanding, they are more in desperate need of what some hold. Just because one understands, does not mean they are not lacking… it more likely means they are craving even more; just for the right reasons.

Of course, it all depends on how it is viewed whether what he did was wrong or right. Certainly the worship of the image of Jesus is wrong… so, those who choose to do so, or to worship any image rather than G.d, why do they deserve what should be given to the children who know the voice of their G.d, the Saviour, and seek it whole heartedly for what it is and not what it can bring them? Now, I see this allegorically and thus, I am unsure that what I am saying will make any sense.
And then again, what do I know? Just offering up another view, since I can actually see this from a myriad of angles… just, considering; this one kind of seemed to be a valid view to bring forth.

(again... giving off this warning to say, do not take this as a point chalked up for those who worship the image of Jesus or buy into the paganistic literal views written. I am highly opposed to such views).

Katie, this is as usual, another very interesting post of yours, but I am afraid you haven't adequately addressed the issue of Jesus with that Gentile woman. Except for the very beginning, when you brought up the point that it wouldn't hurt the children of neither side that the meat they so desperately crave is thrown to those who prefer ashes over beauty. Very mysterious statement, but the condition of that mother would not prompt her to evaluate beauty before she got some of the crumbles from the table of the Jews, albeit ashes for the children but bread for the dogs.

Are you implying that you agree with Jesus' attitude? If you ask me, I don't. I mean, if that ever happened, which I doubt, because Jesus knew the Scriptures in Isaiah 42:6, that Israel had been given as light or bread unto the Gentiles.

I am mind-oriented into believing that episode as an allegory or parable, as it was Jesus' custom to speak in parables. I wonder if the gospel writer was not reflecting on the opposite, a Pauline mindset to consider the Jews like dogs and pigs, as it became so inculcated in the Christian mind as a Jewish insult, considering that even in modern times, and even in America of a few years ago, it was common in some public places like restaurants to carry billboards forbidding the entrance of dogs and Jews.

I assure you that in my whole life as a Jew, I have never heard of a Jew to consider
Gentiles as dogs, but in the NT; and Jesus of all people? Well, I wonder.

Ben:

 

[IF_u_knew]

Katie, this is as usual, another very interesting post of yours, but I am afraid you haven't adequately addressed the issue of Jesus with that Gentile woman. Except for the very beginning, when you brought up the point that it wouldn't hurt the children of neither side that the meat they so desperately crave is thrown to those who prefer ashes over beauty. Very mysterious statement, but the condition of that mother would not prompt her to evaluate beauty before she got some of the crumbles from the table of the Jews, albeit ashes for the children but bread for the dogs.

Are you implying that you agree with Jesus' attitude? If you ask me, I don't. I mean, if that ever happened, which I doubt, because Jesus knew the Scriptures in Isaiah 42:6, that Israel had been given as light or bread unto the Gentiles.

I am mind-oriented into believing that episode as an allegory or parable, as it was Jesus' custom to speak in parables. I wonder if the gospel writer was not reflecting on the opposite, a Pauline mindset to consider the Jews like dogs and pigs, as it became so inculcated in the Christian mind as a Jewish insult, considering that even in modern times, and even in America of a few years ago, it was common in some public places like restaurants to carry billboards forbidding the entrance of dogs and Jews.

I assure you that in my whole life as a Jew, I have never heard of a Jew to consider
Gentiles as dogs, but in the NT; and Jesus of all people? Well, I wonder.

Ben:

Hmmm... okay, will try to clarify better for you. I do not think it is okay to treat anyone with disrespect... but, me.. not being humanistic , I will not fully embrace someone who chooses to worship the image of a man (or any image in the heavens or on earth). I will speak to them as their equal.. me and them both being human beings, but never will I flatter them, nor will I treat them better than one who does acknowledge G.d as being the one True G.d. To carry what I do and to imagine someone else willing to do it... well, my Love will be more expressed toward them.

I will say that I would NEVER treat them in the manner that Jesus did either. He gave to them falsely... Never did he enquire if it was G.d she recognized over his image and in that regard, I consider him in the wrong. I think he dealt with her falsely. And believe me.. as a single mother and being "rejected" by first, my husband, and *then* most for chasing after what my heart really longed for (will clarify this as it only seems right.. but hold up), I can "feel" for her.. sincerely. I do. But where this mother and I differ is that I did not settle for a man's blessing and I refuse to do so, no matter how lonely it may get. In that regard, it does bother me that the Jewish people accept so much and flatter so much concerning those who would deny G.d to worship images. It feels like a blatant slap in the face.. thus, why I stated, I was specifically following orders by G.d not to convert.. according to the Scriptures that we both claim to follow.

Now... when I say I get rejected by most for my views, I am actually more well received by those who do not know *what* to believe or they worship Life as a whole (which, personally, I do not have problem with.. at least it is not an image they are worshiping). But, why should I feel okay while the Jewish people give out more love to those who hold not to their beliefs and worship images (and the state of Israel takes contributions from them) and I get looked down on and have to debase myself further when I can clearly prove that I am *of* Him?? (you being the "mostly exception" to this, of course). I believe the same way, but I can not submit to something that embraces those who worship idols and makes those who obvioulsy do not, debase themselves. It would be wrong. And yes... it hurts to see the Love and embraces going to just anyone.. especially those who worship idols and just a mere couple minutes of crying is enough to be embraced. :sad:

Still... I would rather please G.d than man and so, I will continue to "not belong" to anything because I am assured that I belong to Him... does hurt, but it is right and this I am assured of.

 

[ayani]

Ben, actually Jesus does claim to be the Messiah. look at John 4, His conversation with the Samaritan woman. He spells out clearly for her that He is the Messiah.

in Luke 13:28-29 He addresses a Jewish crowd, warning them that they themselves will be cast out of the house of Abraham, but that others from all over the world will come and take their place in God's kingdom.

Jesus also heals and restores Gentiles, and asks them to go forth and tell others about Him. Mark 5:1-20 gives an example.

regarding Jesus' comment, it's grounded in Biblical history. remember the exodus from Egypt, and God's promise to give the land of Canaan over to the Hebrews? remember how the Israelites did not obey God when they went to war against these neighboring peoples, and how God used them to punish His children for refusing to listen to Him? those peoples, remnants of them, remained in the promised land. guests, servants, dogs in the house of the children of Israel. allowed to live there, but not partaking in the blessings of Israel.

for clarity, there's Exodus 23:31-38 and Joshua 9:1-21.

 

[Charity]

I am the one happy to see that sexy tiger looking at me. Yes, darling, I am back and with a new Lap Top. My old one got broken and I had to buy a new one. How are you doing? Have some cookies for me? I am desperate to enjoy them right out of your lovely hands. Well, let me contain myself before I am reported. Today I feel quite romantic. :drool:

Ben

I am happy that you got your new lap top. Remember the problems I had back in December with my computer?
You should feel romantic it is close to Valentines Day. The tiger is holding your cookies in her hands.
I am going to go study your op and I'll get back with you later.....

 

[Charity]

Ben I do agree with you up to a point. The children was the lost sheep of Israel. The whole point was to show that the gospel was to be given first to the Jews. The woman realized this and was willing to settle for the crumbs from the table. While acknowledgeing this the woman was rewarded for her faith, for she knew any part even a small portion was better than nothing and being without hope. Anything that Jesus offered, even a mere crumb was precious in her sight......

In the Greek the term "dogs" meant a pet dog in the home, We, the dogs, the Gentiles are reaping the crumbs from the Jewish table.....

If I can't sit by my master's side or be on his lap, then this dog will be content to lay at His feet........uppy:

 

[Quagmire]

I would definitely take your word for it if there was no precedence in the life of Jesus to indicate his aversion to Gentiles. Every time he sent his disciples to spread his gospel about the Kingdom of God, he would warn them not to take it to the Gentiles or even to enter a Samaritan town. That's in Matthew 10:1-10. And what did the disciples were bringing in terms of the Kingdom of God? Some of the things that Gentile woman asked of Jesus.

Ben:

I'm not asking you to take my word for anything, Ben, I'm asking you to read and try to understand what I'm saying.

As far as I'm concerned I pretty much blew your interpretation of the passage in question out of the water.

Apparently you think so too or you wouldn't be trying to change the focus of the debate.

again: I'm suggesting that Jesus' initial reaction to the woman's pleas was designed to be a test of her faith.

The idea of a spiritual Master testing a potential follower by insulting them; telling them they're not worthy, calling them fools, or comparing them to a dog, is a common theme in religious literature.