Desire - renounce it or embrace it?

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm re-reading a good book called Open to Desire by Mark Epstein, M.D. that discusses how we possibly could be setting ourselves up for failure in the long run when we take great pains to eliminate all desire (sensual and sexual) from our surroundings and pysche.

From the book:

Many sincere people drawn to Eastern spirituality are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In identifying the cause fo suffering as desire, they struggle to eliminate it from their being. A number of these people have come to consult me, wondering why their spiritual pursuits have nto brought them the peace of mind they were expecting. To sit with them in a room is to feel people not quite at peace with themselves. There can be a closed, anxious or fearful quality underlying the way they express themselves. When they become more honest about their desires, a different feeling emerges. They become more present, alive, open, and tender. The brittleness disappears. It becomes easier to breathe. All of the feelings that I associate with meditation, that I want to make accessible to people through the medium of psychotherapy, open up when people become able to treat their desires as their own.

Is Dr. Epstein mistaken? Or is he on to something? How effective are the kinds of ahimsa and limitations and "thou shalt not's" are we when we demonize and run away from our desires?

 

[tomspug]

Desire is like pain, it signifies need. You are only increasing your own personal risk by removing it, though not necessarily doing yourself any obvious harm.

From a Western view, it is important to remember that desire is amoral. It is merely a sign of internal need and should not be ignored or suppressed. Does this mean we should attempt to fulfill every whim of desire? Of course not. Morality is a dialog of circumstances. The question is not whether or not to appease desire (because it SHOULD BE!) but how one goes about doing that, whether or not the method of self-fulfillment is moral or not. See, it is not the desire itself but the method that is subject to morality.

All feelings are there for a reason. They are our bodies way of expressing what we should provide for it. For every feeling we repress, we are undoubtedly denying ourselves of something necessary, whether it is physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual...

 

[Mister Emu]

I agree with Tom

 

[michel]

Unfortunately, desire is a very natural and human urge. Without it, there would be no instinct to procreate, to survive; essentially, without desire, we would die out as a species.

When it comes down to it, we are animals; oh, we love to think of ourselves as being such superior and intelligent ones, but nature's urges are in us.........

 

[Caladan]

To deny ourselves our primal urges and needs is not something that can leave us without a scar.
the question is, how far and in what way should we indulge ourselves.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Desire is like pain, it signifies need. You are only increasing your own personal risk by removing it, though not necessarily doing yourself any obvious harm.

What would be the difference?

From a Western view, it is important to remember that desire is amoral. It is merely a sign of internal need and should not be ignored or suppressed. Does this mean we should attempt to fulfill every whim of desire? Of course not. Morality is a dialog of circumstances. The question is not whether or not to appease desire (because it SHOULD BE!) but how one goes about doing that, whether or not the method of self-fulfillment is moral or not. See, it is not the desire itself but the method that is subject to morality.

Yes. I can agree with the bold part of the statement. My stance is this......we need not be afraid of our desires. In many ways - and perhaps in very profound ways - our desires are excellent teaching opportunities for us in the path of mindfulness.

All feelings are there for a reason. They are our bodies way of expressing what we should provide for it. For every feeling we repress, we are undoubtedly denying ourselves of something necessary, whether it is physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual...

I concur. :clap

 

[Engyo]

Hi, Mystic -

In my experience, there is nothing problematic about desire itself. What needs to be eliminated is not the desire itself, but the attachment to the fulfillment of that desire. If we are not attached to that fulfillment, we can still be open to the desire itself, and deal with it appropriately.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hi, Mystic -

In my experience, there is nothing problematic about desire itself. What needs to be eliminated is not the desire itself, but the attachment to the fulfillment of that desire. If we are not attached to that fulfillment, we can still be open to the desire itself, and deal with it appropriately.

BINGO!! :bow:

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I sometimes wonder if there is a cultural misunderstanding here...

My background with Eastern thought is primarily with Taoism and Zen Buddhism. I never interpreted anything that said we should remove desire, but that we shouldn't give it power beyond what it is.

In other words, we should accept it as something that "is." Desire is not the cause of suffering, our attachment to it is. Once we learn to embrace the desire and let it go without objectifying and deifying it, the attachment falls away.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Hi, Mystic -

In my experience, there is nothing problematic about desire itself. What needs to be eliminated is not the desire itself, but the attachment to the fulfillment of that desire. If we are not attached to that fulfillment, we can still be open to the desire itself, and deal with it appropriately.

Beat me to it!

Jinx!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I sometimes wonder if there is a cultural misunderstanding here...

My background with Eastern thought is primarily with Taoism and Zen Buddhism. I never interpreted anything that said we should remove desire, but that we shouldn't give it power beyond what it is.

In other words, we should accept it as something that "is." Desire is not the cause of suffering, our attachment to it is. Once we learn to embrace the desire and let it go without objectifying and deifying it, the attachment falls away.

Yes, when the Four Noble Truths are translated to our language as saying that the causes of suffering is not just ignorance, but desire, we can become so confused. I believe that the best way to describe the cause of suffering is craving or thirsting for the idea of fulfillment that you may have in your mind.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes, when the Four Noble Truths are translated to our language as saying that the causes of suffering is not just ignorance, but desire, we can become so confused. I believe that the best way to describe the cause of suffering is craving or thirsting for the idea of fulfillment that you may have in your mind.

Hm...

I wonder if there is confusion in the translation. Desire may represent the attachment as well in the original text, while the Western mindset represents only the instinctual yearning?

At any rate, I do think Zen Buddhism has a completely different take on it from Indian Buddhism. Zen philosophy doesn't appear to advocate removing or denying anything, but acceptance of what is.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hm...

I wonder if there is confusion in the translation. Desire may represent the attachment as well in the original text, while the Western mindset represents only the instinctual yearning?

At any rate, I do think Zen Buddhism has a completely different take on it from Indian Buddhism. Zen philosophy doesn't appear to advocate removing or denying anything, but acceptance of what is.

Tantric Buddhism considers desire to be a valuable teaching tool, actually, and as a kind of precious guru.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Tantric Buddhism considers desire to be a valuable teaching tool, actually, and as a kind of precious guru.

Right! I forgot about this.

 

[Heneni]

We all need spiritual food, but we dont all desire it. If we dont desire spiritual food, will our spirits be fed, or would it slowly die? It wont come to life. Like a seed, it needs sunshine, and water and nutrients to 'awake'.

But still if we have an unhealthy attachment to getting fed, we will become clogged up and murky water. An unhealty desire to acquire spiritual food will result in an eating disorder. Whereas, when we have healthy eating habits our spirits will grow healthy and strong.

We should embrace the desire to be fed, our hunger and our thrist needs to be satisfied, and we should not surpress it. What we should supress is acquiring spiritual food that we cant live.

 

[Heneni]

As far as other desires are concerned...regarding that which is material and that which the body believes it deserves, I would say that the spirit must be able to overrule any of these desires that would result in the slow degradation of the spirit. Not all desires outside of the spirit is bad for us...but the attachment to it is. However, a christian is attached to the head, jesus christ and so in a spiritual sense...the attatchment is required.

heneni

 

[MysticSang'ha]

As far as other desires are concerned...regarding that which is material and that which the body believes it deserves, I would say that the spirit must be able to overrule any of these desires that would result in the slow degradation of the spirit. Not all desires outside of the spirit is bad for us...but the attachment to it is. However, a christian is attached to the head, jesus christ and so in a spiritual sense...the attatchment is required.

heneni

How can you discern spiritual desire from human desire?

 

[Heneni]

How can you discern spiritual desire from human desire?

Ooohhh, thats a toughy! But id say that you would feel that something is 'missing' it would indicate a lack of spiritual food. Then we should turn our little beeks to the source.

But other than that, anything that you believe you deserve is a human desire.

Advertisments usually capatilises on this line of thinking to entice us to fall for its temptations. For example Loreal advertises their products by adding the final crunch at the end....'you deserve it'.

Holidays are advertised in a way that makes you believe you 'deserve' a break.

Food/sweets/anything we can put in our mouth, beckons us and tells us , you deserve it.

We desire stuff, and so to push you to take the plunge, your told ...go on ...you deserve it.

For me...that has been a good way to determine whether its a spiritual need or a physical/mental need. If i feel I deserve it the red lights go on. Whether i deserve it or not is irrelavant. The red lights go on,...because at that moment, id be tempted to desire that which i should not/can not have and form an attachment to it.

Heneni

 

[doppelganger]

Desire embraced can be channeled productive and positive ways. Desire abhorred or denied manifests in uncontrolled destructive and negative ways.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Tantric Buddhism considers desire to be a valuable teaching tool, actually, and as a kind of precious guru.

Desire embraced can be channeled productive and positive ways. Desire abhorred or denied manifests in uncontrolled destructive and negative ways.

Kind of what I was getting at, but how can it manifest when channeled in productive ways? I have my own POV, but I want you to go first.