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The answer to why God doesnt heal Amputees

Paroxys

Metaphysical Ruminator
Dear Charity,

Great reply and thanks for calling me to task. I hope to answer you and the few others.

God really doesn't care about Cancer, Rape, Murder and Evil as we perceive it. We look at these HORRIBLE things in the present while God looks at the big picture. If a child is born and from that moment it was born it suffered all his or her life and lived until they were 100 it would mean very very little to the soul of that person as the soul of that person will live for countless billions of years. Why does it even matter? Because while that person is experiencing a terrible life, he or she is experiencing something that will make that person MORE. We talk about sayings like, "that which does not destroy us makes us stronger" and we could use that in this case. To jump to why we are here argument then that will be brought up, you are on this Earth only once as the person you are, the "Soul" that inhabits your body is like a blank recorder. This is kind of like Buddhism but without the Skandas concept.

As to my ramblings, it was an effort to get someone to ask something so I can share MY ideas, thoughts and opinions (some based on personal facts LOL)

God has never healed one person on this Earth as it doesn't matter. The fact (or opinion) that some people were healed (or claim that) can be attributed to beings that have used all their efforts to make very small changes that might or might not help that person. Ask anyone, it is much easier to destroy a few cell rather then regrow billions into a new arm or leg.

Sp my answer (opinion) is that prayer works for those that use it as a cathartic exercise and for possible communication to beings (angels?) that try to help in a small way.

As to your overall critic, I am ok with it, I don't' care about the sentence structure as long as the message is conveyed. Feel free to ask, critic or what ever you wish if you have any questions or comments.

Thanks again for the great post.

Under the assumption that we are discussing the concept of the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh (which may be false, so correct me if I'm wrong), the implication would be that cancer, rape, etc. are in fact good, as they allow for "soul-building." Specifically, utilizing your interpretation, the good of "soul-building" trumps the material ramifications of any of the "bad" (which is "good" since soul-building is ordained by God) things that people do, like rape and murder. This would lead me to believe, that if I went out and raped, tortured, and murdered everyone in the world, this, in fact, would be the greatest act ever of "soul-building" ever, and thus the greatest service to God possible, earning me an eternal position in the ranks of heaven. (Pardon me if I come off as insulting, I merely intend to use satire and humor as an effective means of underscoring an interesting aspect of your words, although God may infact be supportive of mass rape and slaughter, especially if you look at the Old Testament :angel2:).
 

icdchris

Member
If God doesn't care what evolves, why would we call him God? In that case, your God looks remarkably like the random mutations of evolution. This reasoning is so flawed as to make me believe you didn't look at it before you posted it. Being a parent, I guided me children, giving them lots of room to grow but I let them grow. They turned out great and I am still their Dad. God wants life to evolve based on the conditions of the environment, he doesn't care about the looks of the children.

As a followup thought - if God doesn't care what evolves why would he ever "tweak" his creation (here and there), as you submit? He "tweaks" things to help move the process forward. He can see where things are leading and likes to dabble here and there to help it along but in general he guides, takes the "middle" path between total control and no control.

To be honest, I find that such hypothetical questions really strain credulity. But then again, in fairness to you, I find the entire concept of a God to strain credulity, so I guess that you have every right to twist, bend, fold, spindle and mutilate rational thought in the pursuit of vindication for your contentions. __________________ I am not looking for vindication, I only express my views to those that want to read them and agree or disagree. Go ahead and don't believe, it make NO difference if you believe or not, the path is there and you have a very long time to travel on it. It is now time for humans to grow up and accept that they are not in the Santa Claus, NeverNever land of Religion. Remember when you were growing up? Believing in Santa Claus was cook but you grew up and found out that having sex was better then Santa Claus. LOL Peace
 

icdchris

Member
Wow,

No where is I infer that Rape and Murder were good, that would be an indication that they were positive events. Using your logic, only bad things will be good and good things don't count and that is not what was infered. When someone loses an arm or a leg, their experinces CHANGE, not MORE, not LESS then someone that did not lose an arm. The Path that their experiences happen is altered and as far as God is concerned, this altered path is not more nor less then the unaltered path.

Here is a lesson for you in logic, it is called a syllogism.
Major premise: All humans are mortal.Minor premise: Socrates is a human.Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.Make sure your logic follows that framework and you will not go through that flawed logic your stated.
 

idea

Question Everything
Answer: It doesn't matter that the person lost a limb. You are here on this earth to experience things that will make you grow. Losing a limb, getting cancer, being tortured, raped or killed are things that have no long term effect on your soul.

If there is no long term effect, then what is the use of going through it? It is all completely pointless????? nothing learned, nothing changed????? let's hope life is not completely pointless....

not that it is all "soul building" there are some things that I don't think anyone can gain any benefit from. For those things? It is the price of having free will. People prob already said that though. and with free will - I don't condone letting people walk all over me in order to save their free will - consequences are a good thing... If people were not allowed to do anything bad though... I can see them at the pearly gates "but I did not do anything bad" - Peter "but you did not do anything good and your thoughts were horrible" - "but I did not do antying bad - you can't prove that I would have" ... for me - LDS - the highest degree of heaven includes becoming a God, some people really should not be given that kind of power, in order to satify justice, perhaps their actions are allowed so that their limitations in the next life are justified... just random thoughts.

OH - and welcome to RF! don't mind us, and don't take anything personally - it's just this is a debate area and all. We love anyone who will come in with a good debate :)
 
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Paroxys

Metaphysical Ruminator
Wow,

No where is I infer that Rape and Murder were good, that would be an indication that they were positive events. Using your logic, only bad things will be good and good things don't count and that is not what was infered. When someone loses an arm or a leg, their experinces CHANGE, not MORE, not LESS then someone that did not lose an arm. The Path that their experiences happen is altered and as far as God is concerned, this altered path is not more nor less then the unaltered path.

Here is a lesson for you in logic, it is called a syllogism.
Major premise: All humans are mortal.Minor premise: Socrates is a human.Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.Make sure your logic follows that framework and you will not go through that flawed logic your stated.

Except you are now amending your words to be specifically change, whereas prior, your words, had a significant implication that these "bad" experiences provided "soul-building" specifically your usage of the word "more," and the quote "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger," and so and so forth (also, the soul as a blank recorder statement). 1st establish a stable, CLEAR, unchanging framework before you start criticizing others logic (if several people interpreted your words to mean "soul-building" is good, the obviously your framework was well defined in the 1st place).

Granted, I may have discounted "good" experiences as "soul-building," but if everything is merely change, and not "more" nor "less," which seems to indicate that that all experiences are equal, there is no "good" nor "bad" as everything leads to soul-building. In which case, you (amended) argument still falls apart as rape and genocide is just as good as birthday parties and ice cream tasting.

Also, your "grand scheme" argument, although acting as sufficient answer for the question you posed in the thread, poses serious questions about morality and way our lives should be lead, under a system in which only change happens, and that change cannot be determined as positive or negative, human society would naturally degenerate down essentially anarchy.

Essentially your framework to put it in your words is -
All experiences cause a change and transformation of the "soul"
Changes in the soul are always, neither good, nor bad, merely different.
Therefore, all experiences (rape and genocide, or building homes and creating a cure for cancer) are neither good nor bad, merely different. (Which would be a system with no morality).
 

icdchris

Member
Essentially your framework to put it in your words is -
All experiences cause a change and transformation of the "soul"
Changes in the soul are always, neither good, nor bad, merely different.
Therefore, all experiences (rape and genocide, or building homes and creating a cure for cancer) are neither good nor bad, merely different. (Which would be a system with no morality).

Nice argument and it would correctly sum up my point. God does not create the system of morality, humans do. We have been in constant change of what we perceive as moral for thousands of years. During the Ancient Greek period, it was not only considered good but essential for an older man (teacher) to have sex with young buys (students) until they reached puberty. The Romans viewed homosexual behavior as acceptable (as long as you were not on the receiving end), the Middle ages saw an extreme change and we have changed our system of Morality very much since then.

To go even further, I will postulate that if you killed everyone in the world you would experience more. This more is not any more then a person that sits in their room all day playing Playstation, it is simply different. View it like this. Lets say you did each of these things, Killed a child and saved a child from death. Now I want you to think that you have experienced millions of lives in your path to the Divine, living hundreds of millions of years and experiencing billions of things. You remember exactly that one day you "killed" someone and "saved" someone hundreds of millionsof years ago. What would that mean to you in the big picture? Would you be better or worse or would it simply be one or two more experiences that have helped define your being and make you grow.

God, doesn't care if you live a good life or bad, God wants you to experience things and for us, being good usually means more people have a good time in getting experiences.

We live on a planet in an average part of a Galaxy that holds Billions of Stars and that is part of only one of Billions of Galaxies. If you want to know more about why we are here, go see the Movie Defending your Life, it is not true but it does show some truth.

Don't Fear Little Brain (LMAO) see the movie

As to Deism, I know the meaning

To a Deist, God does not to change the normal operation of the Universe but that is not what I wrote. I wrote that God Tweaks things here and there to help it move along. The fact that we cant totally understand Gods plan does not mean he doesn't have a plan.

 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
God believes in Intelligent Design, its called EVOLUTION.
- and -
I wrote that God Tweaks things here and there to help it move along.
- followed by -
The fact that we cant totally understand Gods plan does not mean he doesn't have a plan.

I'm going to have to have to ask for help here. How is it that in the first two quotes, you are telling us what God believes, what God is doing - and why he is doing it. Yet in the last quote, we can't understand God's plan.

Do you know God's mind, or don't you?
 
God(s)?, all knowing, all powerful however lacking the INTELLIGENCE to pass on his/hers/ its DESIGN for lizzards (that enable tail regrowth) so man can be made whole again in "his image" by regrowing an amputated limb. Or, replacing lost human teeth asallegedly designed for sharks. Well at least your "god" is NOT egotistical.
 

Paroxys

Metaphysical Ruminator
God, doesn't care if you live a good life or bad, God wants you to experience things and for us, being good usually means more people have a good time in getting experiences.

I sincerely hope you are not referring to the Judeo-Christian god, God of Abraham, Yahweh.
 

icdchris

Member
God(s)?, all knowing, all powerful however lacking the INTELLIGENCE to pass on his/hers/ its DESIGN for lizzards (that enable tail regrowth) so man can be made whole again in "his image" by regrowing an amputated limb. Or, replacing lost human teeth asallegedly designed for sharks. Well at least your "god" is NOT egotistical.


God doesnt "design" all creators, evolution does. The fact that Monkeys eventually evolved into Sentient Beings, capable of holding a Divine Spark does not negate our inability to replace limbs and teeth. lizards don't write Shakespeare and Sharks don't play golf.

Knowing that I know part of his plan doesn't mean I know all of it. some understanding is better then none.

As to the God of Abraham, that God wasn't THE god as anyone that knows Religion can tell you. Read Psalm 82 and you will see in the BIBLE that God is talking to other Gods. The God of Abraham was a being sent by God to help guide those people. God did allow certain beings to help guild us to growing and developing. No, this does not conflict with his hands off approach as there is a balance between guiding and doing nothing or everything.

Please don't confuse God with Religion. Religion is the systemic control of humans by humans for their exclusive benefit. God is a being that allows us to experience things to make us more. As God told me, he never made anyone a Saint, that was done by humans and he never asked anyone to kill. If he wants you dead, you are dead and chances are you will never have existed.

Again, weather you believe or not, I don't care, I only offer these words to find others that will respond.

Thanks
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
God doesnt "design" all creators, evolution does. The fact that Monkeys eventually evolved into Sentient Beings, capable of holding a Divine Spark does not negate our inability to replace limbs and teeth. lizards don't write Shakespeare and Sharks don't play golf.

Knowing that I know part of his plan doesn't mean I know all of it. some understanding is better then none.

As to the God of Abraham, that God wasn't THE god as anyone that knows Religion can tell you. Read Psalm 82 and you will see in the BIBLE that God is talking to other Gods. The God of Abraham was a being sent by God to help guide those people. God did allow certain beings to help guild us to growing and developing. No, this does not conflict with his hands off approach as there is a balance between guiding and doing nothing or everything.

Please don't confuse God with Religion. Religion is the systemic control of humans by humans for their exclusive benefit. God is a being that allows us to experience things to make us more. As God told me, he never made anyone a Saint, that was done by humans and he never asked anyone to kill. If he wants you dead, you are dead and chances are you will never have existed.

Again, weather you believe or not, I don't care, I only offer these words to find others that will respond.

Thanks

I'll respond.

One moment you tell me what God wants and believes, with the next breath you tell me we can't know God's mind, now you're telling me that you only know part of the plan (but we can't know it all). To top that off, God is talking to you, but he isn't really God - he's a being sent by God.

At the risk of offending you, I have to say that those are some pretty incredible ramblings.

I hope you'll understand my skepticism.
 

icdchris

Member
I'll respond.

One moment you tell me what God wants and believes, with the next breath you tell me we can't know God's mind, now you're telling me that you only know part of the plan (but we can't know it all). To top that off, God is talking to you, but he isn't really God - he's a being sent by God.

At the risk of offending you, I have to say that those are some pretty incredible ramblings.

I hope you'll understand my skepticism.

Let me answer:

I tell you what God has told me. I told you I am not a prophet. I know part of how an engine works but I do not know it all so does that mean I ramble? Knowing part of something does not negate not knowing all of something. To know all of God's plan would be presumptuous to say the least.

Do I know if God is talking to me or if its a surrogate like others? Does if matter? In the subject theory of truth the truth of the matter is not relative to this. I have had many conversations (in my sleep, interesting) with a being calling itself God. This being has told me that I should not worry about myself nor anyone else. I am not trying to convert anyone. I have subjected this being to many questions and in most cases, I did not like the answers but could not fault the logic.

i.e. if you are all powerful can you make a rock you cant lift. answer, I am the rock, I am not seperate from the Universe to stand outside to lift, I am the Universe.

If reincarnation was real was are there more people around today? Answer, there are billions of worlds with beings and they go anywhere, including here.

OK. Knowing that nothing can travel the speed of light how can these beings come here (in spirit, not aliens) answer. When a being is in pure spirit they are a part of God and since God is the Universe, they are connected to all things so travel as you know it doesn't not happen. (really didn't like that answer)


Why so you allow Evil in the world. i.e. Hitler, Murder and such. Answer, there is no evil, only ignorance and that is not evil. Hitler, although he killed millions of people in the long run did not hurt anyone, all those people are living and will leave forever as we perceive it. The experience they had on this Earth, although bad, is something that will help define them and give them more.

Why are all versions of God? answer, you can view me like Music, as long as you experience and enjoy music you will understand it. A rose by any other name ... God in the past has given us these labels so we can understand him until we (another thing I dislike, reference to Jung LOL) are ready to grow beyond that point.

To sum it up, I don't give a rats azz what you think or not. I am not trying to convert anyone, just letting my voice find those that agree and disagree with it. You are on the same path as I, in an infinite amount of time, you can I will reach our destination, whether you believe it or me.

I hope my ramblings help. LMAO
 

Paroxys

Metaphysical Ruminator
It is extremely challenging at attempting to discern your meaning, many of your words and sentences are so convulted, your intent is difficult to interpret even with context. But I guess it is safe to assume the "god" you refer to isn't the Judeo-Christian god, Yahweh. (Though it is accepted literary canon that Yahweh, God of Abraham, of the Old Testament, is God the Creator, Father of Jesus)

I tell you what God has told me. I told you I am not a prophet. I know part of how an engine works but I do not know it all so does that mean I ramble? Knowing part of something does not negate not knowing all of something. To know all of God's plan would be presumptuous to say the least.

Often times, knowing only part of the picture is worse than knowing nothing at all. Hitler misappropriated various aspects of Nietzche's philosophical thought as a justification for genocide. Or to use your analogy, knowing only part of how an engine works, and not how it interacts with all the other parts, is worse than not knowing anything at all. Knowledge of one part leads to ASSUMPTIONS about its interactions with other components and by extension, ASSUMPTIONS about other parts as well. This leads to misinformation (which is worse than lack of information).

Do I know if God is talking to me or if its a surrogate like others? Does if matter? In the subject theory of truth the truth of the matter is not relative to this. I have had many conversations (in my sleep, interesting) with a being calling itself God. This being has told me that I should not worry about myself nor anyone else. I am not trying to convert anyone. I have subjected this being to many questions and in most cases, I did not like the answers but could not fault the logic.

This paragraph is especially unclear (subject theory of truth the truth of the matter is not relative to this?), but aside from that, the most important, constant aspect of "truth" is that it is consistent with itself, that its logic doesn't collapse upon itself. However, your logic (or rather the logic of "god") has been highly irratic, shifting your framework many many times. But now onto the so-called "logic" of "God."

i.e. if you are all powerful can you make a rock you cant lift. answer, I am the rock, I am not seperate from the Universe to stand outside to lift, I am the Universe.

This isn't even an answer, let alone an answer with logic. This is sophistry, misdirection, not addressing the paradox of omnipotence at all, merely making a metaphorical all is one, one is all reference. Also realize utilizing this "logic," a paradox, an inconsistency, occurs as, to paraphrase your god, "you are not outside of the universe to converse with" which evidently, you are doing (albeit, in a dream, but it doesn't make my arguement any less valid, as your dreams are part of the universe). Also, this directly refutes a prior statement of yours, saying that "God," can tweak the universe, suggesting that he has external control, which is highly inconsistent with the "answer" he gave you. Furthermore, it begs the question, how did he come into existence? Did he magically create himself? (And no, Cogito Ergo Sum doesn't work, as the logic of the statement is circular)

If reincarnation was real was are there more people around today? Answer, there are billions of worlds with beings and they go anywhere, including here.

Again, not a straight answer, more misdirection, more sophistry. The implied answer is however, there is a set, constant, amount of "soul" or "spirit" (again begging the question, where does it all come from?) which indicates, that all our "souls/spirits" have been around since the beginning of time, experiencing everything. However, why is there no recollection of these past experiences? If our "souls" are reset whenever we enter a new vessel, mooting your framework of experience. The framework you present (which is derived from your "experience" with God) is incompatible with this "God."

OK. Knowing that nothing can travel the speed of light how can these beings come here (in spirit, not aliens) answer. When a being is in pure spirit they are a part of God and since God is the Universe, they are connected to all things so travel as you know it doesn't not happen. (really didn't like that answer)

Cute, apparantly spirits (and souls?) have mass/energy and are affected by the laws of physics (and if so, why haven't spirit or soul particles or even traces of them been discovered yet? Plus if these spirits and souls are timeless and infinite, why does the amount of time to travel matter?) Again, this paragraph is highly unclear (travel as you know it doesn't not happen, what?) but this implies that all of us are in fact "part of God," which isn't really possible as the God you see is externalized (otherwise, how is interaction possible?).

Why so you allow Evil in the world. i.e. Hitler, Murder and such. Answer, there is no evil, only ignorance and that is not evil. Hitler, although he killed millions of people in the long run did not hurt anyone, all those people are living and will leave forever as we perceive it. The experience they had on this Earth, although bad, is something that will help define them and give them more.

Apparantly, evil doesn't exist, but it does? This answer given is just so bad it actually physically (and spiritually) hurts, as it directly contradicts itself. Evil doesn't exist, but a moral judgement that people's experiences can be bad does (again with the shifting framework), Good and Evil/Bad can exist in the Short-run, but don't in the long? Clearly, this logic fails miserably. The fact that the moral judgement of "bad" was passed on the experience by "God," moots the framework you presents.

Why are all versions of God? answer, you can view me like Music, as long as you experience and enjoy music you will understand it. A rose by any other name ... God in the past has given us these labels so we can understand him until we (another thing I dislike, reference to Jung LOL) are ready to grow beyond that point.

The implication here is that religions all around twisted this message to support their own political agenda (which I agree with), but this answer presupposes his existence, and really, can't be used as an ontological proof of God.

To sum it up, I don't give a rats azz what you think or not. I am not trying to convert anyone, just letting my voice find those that agree and disagree with it. You are on the same path as I, in an infinite amount of time, you can I will reach our destination, whether you believe it or me.

All your arguments presuppose the existence of the "spirit" or the "soul" as something external and outside of the body (and thereby, the universe), which again you yourself say its not. Apparant contradictions, and huge leaps of logic exist within your reasoning and "framework." Also, what happens if you're wrong? That your conversations with "God" turn out to be your brain's method of rationalizing and dealing with the fear of the unknown (what happens post-mortum, specifically), that our spirit and souls aren't timeless and universal, that in fact, the existential view of life is correct (or, at the very least, more accurate), that after death its merely just, as Porky pig put it best, "That's all Folks!"

I hope my ramblings help. LMAO

Yes, they helped alleviate my boredom, and realize, that I'm not trying to attack or insult you personally, I merely mean to emphasize lapses of logic to promote critical thinking and fight ignorance.

P.S. please try making your next posts more coherent, as I am limited by the medium of your words and cannot tell exactly what your thoughts are, and may be misrepresenting them.
 
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The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
... please try making your next posts more coherent, as I am limited by the medium of your words and cannot tell exactly what your thoughts are, and may be misrepresenting them.

I highly doubt that you could misrepresent what he is saying. I just don't think it would be possible.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
If God doesn't care what evolves, why would we call him God? In that case, your God looks remarkably like the random mutations of evolution. This reasoning is so flawed as to make me believe you didn't look at it before you posted it. Being a parent, I guided me children, giving them lots of room to grow but I let them grow. They turned out great and I am still their Dad. God wants life to evolve based on the conditions of the environment, he doesn't care about the looks of the children.
Or, and here's a simpler explanation, maybe there is no such thing.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
not that it is all "soul building" there are some things that I don't think anyone can gain any benefit from. For those things? It is the price of having free will.

A baby born with a congenital disease got it as an exercise in its free will?!?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
idchris: May I offer you a lesson in the quote function? It will make your posts easier for the rest of us to follow.
 
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