LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Orontes]

To all of my LDS friends, this is a major issue. Do you understand what happened in Genesis 3? Do you understand how Satan tried to tempt Jesus and how Jesus responded to the deceiver?

Please click the link: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/65624-book-mormon-copycat-holy-bible.html

Genesis 3 - The Fall of Man

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Matthew 4 - The Temptation of Jesus

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

John 8 - (I am not applying this verse to anybody, but illustrating that Satan is the father of lies)

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Hi Fish-Hunter,

I take it by this reference to a completely new thread you are admitting failure here. Is that so? If not, then your category mistake regarding the Pauline Epistles awaits. There are also the two conclusions about the God of your theological pronouncements, to whit:

A) A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
B) A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.

Now, I don't think there is any escape from these dilemmas given your stance, so I understand the retreat to a new thread. Even so, given your poor performance demonstrated over and over here, do you really think its prudent to jump into the water again with those you seem clearly unable to swim with?

Another question: I doubt you have read the Book of Mormon. In the other thread you have two Book of Mormon citations. My guess is you took the citations and would be argument from an anti-Mormon website or some such. Is that right? If so, it can give you some cover, because the stance in the other thread is not well considered. If you really are committed to another go, that is fine, but I think your efforts are going to prove as vainglorious as what happened in this thread. If you are committed to ride again into the valley of death then I could begin by simply asking, what is the definition of grace and what is the definition of faith?*

*Now if you do engage in this other route, then as I noted, I will take this as an admission of total failure in this thread. Which is your poison?

Note: the notation of Gen.3, etc. seem more examples of random citations again.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Hi Fish-Hunter,

I take it by this reference to a completely new thread you are admitting failure here. Is that so? If not, then your category mistake regarding the Pauline Epistles awaits. There are also the two conclusions about the God of your theological pronouncements, to whit:

A) A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
B) A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.

Now, I don't think there is any escape from these dilemmas given your stance, so I understand the retreat to a new thread. Even so, given your poor performance demonstrated over and over here, do you really think its prudent to jump into the water again with those you seem clearly unable to swim with?

Another question: I doubt you have read the Book of Mormon. In the other thread you have two Book of Mormon citations. My guess is you took the citations and would be argument from an anti-Mormon website or some such. Is that right? If so, it can give you some cover, because the stance in the other thread is not well considered. If you really are committed to another go, that is fine, but I think your efforts are going to prove as vainglorious as what happened in this thread. If you are committed to ride again into the valley of death then I could begin by simply asking, what is the definition of grace and what is the definition of faith?*

*Now if you do engage in this other route, then as I noted, I will take this as an admission of total failure in this thread. Which is your poison?

Note: the notation of Gen.3, etc. seem more examples of random citations again.

We can discuss the sovereignty of God as our next topic if that's what you desire. As with the last topic, the Bible is the source of reference to understand God on this thread. Does the God revealed in the Scriptures alone line-up with official Mormon Theology in regards to His complete or partial sovereignty. The Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone, and God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. We know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to sin, and all that He does is holy, perfect, wise and right. Please start and quote biblical scriptures to support your understanding of God. I assume you are going to present that mankind is sovereign over God in salvation. Do you believe natural disasters which thousands perish happen outside the sovereignty of God; does nature have a will of it's own outside the control of God? The bottom line, can you trust God according to His biblical revelation to mankind ? How does God reveal Himself in the Scriptures? The Scriptures teach us three essential truths about God, truths we must believe if we are to trust Him in adversity. They are:

1. God is completely sovereign.
2. God is infinte in wisdom.
3. God is perfect in love.

Lamentations 3:37-38:

Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come? - NIV

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That both good and ill go forth? - NASB

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? - KJV

 

[McBell]

As with the last topic, the Bible is the source of reference to understand God on this thread.

This would be much more accurate if you told the whole story in this sentence:

"As with the last topic, what I think the Bible says is the source of reference to understand God on this thread."
​

There you go.
A much more honest and accurate statement.

 

[uss_bigd]

This would be much more accurate if you told the whole story in this sentence:

"As with the last topic, what I think the Bible says is the source of reference to understand God on this thread."​

There you go.
A much more honest and accurate statement.

What made you think that what you think makes things more accurate and honest?

 

[DeepShadow]

What made you think that what you think makes things more accurate and honest?

Because it's inaccurate and dishonest to assume that one side can speak for the Bible's authors, just because. Therefore, we all have to rely on our own thoughts or interpretations of what the Bible says. Hence the qualifiers.

 

[McBell]

What made you think that what you think makes things more accurate and honest?

I tell you what, why don't you ask those who are participating in this and other threads where fish-hunter talks about his opinion of what the Bible says and see what the general consensus is?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I tell you what, why don't you ask those who are participating in this and other threads where fish-hunter talks about his opinion of what the Bible says and see what the general consensus is?

Sola Scriptura does not mean that a person can have private interpretation of Scriptures. My understanding is historical throughout the history of the church. Here are links to my position of Biblical Christianity or the Historic Christian Faith.

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Who We Are - Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc

Now are we ready to debate the complete sovereignty of God according to the Scriptures?

From darkness to light!

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. - 2 Cor 4 - Holy Bible

 

[DeepShadow]

Sola Scriputra does not mean that a person can have private interepertation of Scriptures. My understanding is historical throughout the history of the church. Here are links to my position of Biblical Christianity.

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

A popular interpretation is still an interpretation. It may not be private, but that's not a guarantee of accuracy.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

A popular interpretation is still an interpretation. It may not be private, but that's not a guarantee of accuracy.

Sure, that's why I am ready to debate the official LDS position with the Historical Christian Faith. I gave you several links to give you an understanding of the Historical Christian Faith understanding of the Scriptures. Remember, my position is based on Sola Scriptura, or the Scriptures as being final authority. I think it's time to let go of the personal comments, and to study the Scriptures to see what God has to say in regards to His complete sovereignty.

It seems to me that LDS Christians have one presupposition and answer to all their positions. It is quite similar to Roman Catholicism. Because you believe final authority has been given to the LDS organization through apparent prophet succession, that whatever the LDS Church tells you is true, you believe it. It is the same position of the Roman Catholic Magestrium and apostolic succession. The same central issue of the Protestant Reformation will be the same issue here. Does Mormon doctrine stand up in the light of Scripture? Please post official positions of the Mormon Church in regards to free will, partial sovereignty of God, etc. I will post Scripture within the uniform beliefs of the three links provided in post 807.

 

[DeepShadow]

Again with the TV set: we've posted them, you've ignored them. When you deal with the category mistake that Orontes has pointed out, I'll take you seriously.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Again with the TV set: we've posted them, you've ignored them. When you deal with the category mistake that Orontes has pointed out, I'll take you seriously.

Orontes wanted to debate the sovereignty of God. I've also noticed that most LDS members will post personal comments like yours, without dealing with the topic at hand. Please go back to the opening post and see what this thread is all about. The Bible is a fixed object and does not change. Either you know what God reveals in the Bible in regards to His sovereignty, or you don't know what's actually in the Bible in regards to the sovereignty of God. I find the personal comments to be child-like, and a scapegoat technique to avoid an honest searching of the scriptures together. Some of you can continue to call me a troll, or other names, but the Word of God will always be there...unchanged. God has spoken authoritatively through the Holy Bible. Faith pleases God; do you believe what He has revealed in His Scriptures? Or, is your faith based simply in the claims of Joseph Smith and apparent prophet succession? What kind of faith pleases God? Faith in His Word the Holy Bible, or apparent prophet succession? Consider these links because they are based on The Historic Christian Faith...and not my personal opinion.

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Who We Are - Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc

This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter
**Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use? Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith? The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context? The proper context is the entire Bible, or at least the entire book of Amos.

The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too.

I'll answer these questions shortly.

 

[DeepShadow]

A brief search of these forums will reveal that I will gladly debate all sorts of topics, with just about anyone...but you. Why do you think that is?

My answer: you commit logical fallacies all the time, and don't show your opponent the respect of actually addressing them when they are pointed out. Hence I don't take you seriously. You ignore other people when they answer your questions as directly as they can. Why should I expect any different?

As for Orontes, his category error that he pointed out was with this topic at hand, not the sovereignty of God. When you take your own topic seriously, so will I.

 

[Scott1]

The Bible is a fixed object and does not change.

Which Bible... yours.... the Orthodox.... or mine?

Fixed?

Hardly.

 

[madhatter85]

I don't even read Fish-Hunter's posts anymore, they don't make sense or they are like he is copy-pasting everythign from his previous posts and ignoring everyone.

It's really quite amazing. I have never seen anything like it before in my life.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Which Bible... yours.... the Orthodox.... or mine?

Fixed?

Hardly.

You will find your comment to be against official Roman Catholic teaching and the Magestrium of the Catholic Church. It is a very liberal comment in light of Orthodox Roman Catholicism. I have no problem debating with the Roman Catholic Bible and the Apocrypha books. You will find that many of the original Protestant Bibles have the Aprocrypha books in the appendix and considered to be profitable reading.

 

[madhatter85]

You will find your comment to be against official Roman Catholic teaching and the Magestrium of the Catholic Church. It is a very liberal comment in light of Orthodox Roman Catholicism. I have no problem debating with the Roman Catholic Bible and the Apocrypha books. You will find that many of the original Protestant Bibles have the Aprocrypha books in the appendix and considered to be profitable reading.

we also believe the Apocyrpha to be of value when read with the spirit to help you discern the inspiration from the additions of man

 

[DeepShadow]

It's really quite amazing. I have never seen anything like it before in my life.

Really? It reminds me a lot of FFH.

 

[madhatter85]

well FFH at least aknowledges you when you speak to him. he may have stubborn ideals but i can also relate to his ideals. He may be crazy, but then so am I.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

well FFH at least aknowledges you when you speak to him. he may have stubborn ideals but i can also relate to his ideals. He may be crazy, but then so am I.

My time like yours is limited to participate on this site. *Paul* and I are like minded in regards to the Historic Christian Faith on the essentials. Since there are so many LDS Chrisitans on this site, take the initiative to study the links provided. Monergism.com will have all the necessary links on every topic that you can think of. The Historic Christian Faith is very uniformed on the essentials of Biblical Christianity (Ephesians 4). In light of the Scriptures, you will find many LDS doctrines to be unbiblical. We started with the topic of the gospel according to the 13 Epistles of Paul. We seem to agree that the Mormon understanding of the gospel cannot be supported by the 13 Epistles of Paul (1/2 of the New Testament). We are now on the topic of the sovereignty of God according to the Scriptures. Can Mormon doctrine on the subject of the sovereignty of God and related issues can stand up to the light of the Scriptures alone? Don't wait for my response, but use the links below as my uniformed answers.

Consider these links because they are based on The Historic Christian Faith...and not my personal opinion.

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Who We Are - Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc

 

[madhatter85]

My time like yours is limited to participate on this site. *Paul* and I are like minded in regards to the Historic Christian Faith on the essentials. Since there are so many LDS Chrisitans on this site, take the initiative to study the links provided. Monergism.com will have all the necessary links on every topic that you can think of. The Historic Christian Faith is very uniformed on the essentials of Biblical Christianity (Ephesians 4). In light of the Scriptures, you will find many LDS doctrines to be unbiblical. We started with the topic of the gospel according to the 13 Epistles of Paul. We seem to agree that the Mormon understanding of the gospel cannot be supported by the 13 Epistles of Paul (1/2 of the New Testament). We are now on the topic of the sovereignty of God according to the Scriptures. Can Mormon doctrine on the subject of the sovereignty of God and related issues can stand up to the light of the Scriptures alone? Don't wait for my response, but use the links below as my uniformed answers.

Consider these links because they are based on The Historic Christian Faith...and not my personal opinion.

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Who We Are - Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc

the problem is that "historic" chrisitanity does not pertain to me because I believe that chrisitanity Apostasized from the true faith, Covenants, and Doctrines.

so stop beating a dead horse, if you disagree then you disagree, leave it at that. especially since you refuse to respond to my valid rebuttles to your statements.