LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Fish-Hunter]

no, i do not agree with any of your nonsense.

if you want to debate how our doctrine is fully supported by the pauline epistles, start a new thread. and point out what of our doctrine you believe is not supported by them and i will show you how it is.

The Apostle Peter wrote about those who try to distort Paul's writings to their own destruction around 2,000 years ago. Nothing is new under the sun in what you are attempting to do.

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3 - Holy Bible and the Apostle Peter

 

[Fish-Hunter]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Mormon Church.

Did I exist before this life?

The gospel? of Jesus Christ is Heavenly Father’s plan for the happiness and salvation? of His children and is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to show us how to live meaningful and happy lives and experience eternal joy after this life. Through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, you can become clean from sin and enjoy peace of conscience. To become worthy to live in Heavenly Father’s presence after this life and to receive this peace and strength, you must learn and follow the principles and ordinances? of the gospel. The first principles of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. The first ordinances of the gospel are baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?. After you learn and follow the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, you must seek to follow Christ’s example throughout the remainder of your life. This continued faithfulness is called “enduring to the end.”

God sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, into the world so that all of His children would have the possibility of returning to live in His presence after they die. Only through the Savior’s grace and mercy can you become clean from sin so that you can live in your Heavenly Father’s presence ( 1 Nephi 10:20–21; 3 Nephi 27:19; Moses 6:57).

Because of Christ’s Atonement? and Resurrection?, all people will be brought back into the presence of the Lord to be judged according to their works and their desires and according to the laws of justice and mercy. The Savior satisfied the demands of justice for those who repent of their sins and endeavor to keep all of His commandments when He stood in our place and suffered the penalty for all sins. Because of the selfless act of the Atonement, Christ can plead with the Father on your behalf. Heavenly Father can apply mercy, withhold eternal consequences from you and welcome you into His presence. However, Jesus did not eliminate your personal responsibility. You must show that you accept Christ and that you have faith in Him by keeping His commandments? and obeying the first principles and ordinances of the...

Mormon.org - The Gospel of Jesus Christ

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Mormon Church stated above cannot be supported through the 13 Epsitles of Paul, or the entire Holy Bible.

2 Corinthians 10:5:
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

 

[uss_bigd]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Mormon Church.

Did I exist before this life?

The gospel? of Jesus Christ is Heavenly Father’s plan for the happiness and salvation? of His children and is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to show us how to live meaningful and happy lives and experience eternal joy after this life. Through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, you can become clean from sin and enjoy peace of conscience. To become worthy to live in Heavenly Father’s presence after this life and to receive this peace and strength, you must learn and follow the principles and ordinances? of the gospel. The first principles of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. The first ordinances of the gospel are baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?. After you learn and follow the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, you must seek to follow Christ’s example throughout the remainder of your life. This continued faithfulness is called “enduring to the end.”

God sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, into the world so that all of His children would have the possibility of returning to live in His presence after they die. Only through the Savior’s grace and mercy can you become clean from sin so that you can live in your Heavenly Father’s presence ( 1 Nephi 10:20–21; 3 Nephi 27:19; Moses 6:57).

Because of Christ’s Atonement? and Resurrection?, all people will be brought back into the presence of the Lord to be judged according to their works and their desires and according to the laws of justice and mercy. The Savior satisfied the demands of justice for those who repent of their sins and endeavor to keep all of His commandments when He stood in our place and suffered the penalty for all sins. Because of the selfless act of the Atonement, Christ can plead with the Father on your behalf. Heavenly Father can apply mercy, withhold eternal consequences from you and welcome you into His presence. However, Jesus did not eliminate your personal responsibility. You must show that you accept Christ and that you have faith in Him by keeping His commandments? and obeying the first principles and ordinances of the...

Mormon.org - The Gospel of Jesus Christ

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Mormon Church stated above cannot be supported through the 13 Epsitles of Paul, or the entire Holy Bible.

which ones?

 

[Sola'lor]

I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Mormon Church stated above cannot be supported through the 13 Epsitles of Paul, or the entire Holy Bible.

And you are entitled to that belief. Just as we are entitled to the belief that our faith is supported by those scriptures.

 

[uss_bigd]

And you are entitled to that belief. Just as we are entitled to the belief that our faith is supported by those scriptures.

since polygamy isn't there, i can agree with you that what fish hunter posted as your doctrine is biblically founded. (at least those i have scanned so far).

which of those doctrines did he argue as not biblcally founded?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

And you are entitled to that belief. Just as we are entitled to the belief that our faith is supported by those scriptures.

I'm not sure if your statement can be supported in the Bible. It appears your statement is breaking the first four commandments of God's 10 commandments. Nobody has a right to believe contrary to how God has commanded and revealed Himself through the Scriptures. I believe your statement also supports idol worship, because you are implying that God can be worshipped in any way that you want.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4

 

[uss_bigd]

I'm not sure if your statement can be supported in the Bible. It appears your statement is breaking the first four commandments of God's 10 commandments. Nobody has a right to believe contrary to how God has commanded and revealed Himself through the Scriptures. I believe your statement also supports idol worship, because you are implying that God can be worshipped in any way that you want.

Christs has more than 10 commandments you know? answer my question Fish-hunter.

 

[Sola'lor]

since polygamy isn't there, i can agree with you that what fish hunter posted as your doctrine is biblically founded. (at least those i have scanned so far).

which of those doctrines did he argue as not biblcally founded?

Are you refering to the post quoted from mormon.org?

I'm not sure if your statement can be supported in the Bible. It appears your statement is breaking the first four commandments of God's 10 commandments. Nobody has a right to believe contrary to how God has commanded and revealed Himself through the Scriptures. I believe your statement also supports idol worship, because you are implying that God can be worshipped in any way that you want.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4

I wasn't making a statement as to the correctness of either belief I was simply saying that as human beings we have the right to believe what we will even if they differ from each other.

 

[uss_bigd]

Are you refering to the post quoted from mormon.org?

yes sir.

 

[Sola'lor]

yes sir.

I didn't see anything in there that was not Biblical.

 

[uss_bigd]

I didn't see anything in there that was not Biblical.

I am sorry, i guess my question was not clear. my apologies sola'lor

Fish hunter was saying they we're not biblical, i believe they are.

I am asking which specific one did fish hunter say was not biblical?

 

[Sola'lor]

I am sorry, i guess my question was not clear. my apologies sola'lor

Fish hunter was saying they we're not biblical, i believe they are.

I am asking which specific one did fish hunter say was not biblical?

Oh.

I ddin't notice. Did he specify one?

 

[uss_bigd]

Oh.

I ddin't notice. Did he specify one?

no, i thought he might in the past. i was asking for a specific doctrine so i can construct a rebuttal.

I hope you dont mind?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

The LDS understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ can be found in the sum total of God's word, which is contained in all scripture and in the words of the prophets -- both ancient and modern. One solitary apostle's writings do not constitute the gospel of Jesus Christ. Whenever someone focuses on only part of what God has revealed, they are sure to end up with a skewed understanding.

Since the Apostle Paul wrote about half of the New Testament, it does not seem wise to write-off the Apostle Paul for apparent modern day prophets that are never mentioned in the Holy Bible. Don't you agree? The Apostle Paul makes exclusive claims in regards to the Jesus Christ that he personally knew, and exclusive claims about His proclamation of the gospel. If you do not know God through the Jesus Christ known by the Apostle Paul, this is what he writes in apostolic authority given to Him directly by Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul was chosen by God and set apart at birth to be God's instrument.

2 Thessalonians 1

We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Galatians 1

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paul Called by God

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[uss_bigd]

The Apostle Paul makes exclusive claims in regards to the Jesus Christ that he personally knew, and exclusive claims about His proclamation of the gospel. If you do not know God through the Jesus Christ known by the Apostle Paul, this is what he writes in apostolic authority.

2 Thessalonians 1


We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

All they and i have heard from you is accusations, specify an LDS doctrine that is not founded in the bible. ( except polygamy)

 

[Orontes]

It seems we should move to the next topic since I have not seen an attempt to support the LDS proclamation of the gospel through the 13 letters of Paul. I assume the silence is admitting that the gospel proclaimed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints cannot be supported through the writings of Paul. Wha't the next topic within the intent of this thread?

This post is confused. Either you have not read or did not understand what was posted. As to a Mormon take on the Gospel via Paul this post is illustrative. Moreover, you have not dealt with the category mistake that undercuts your stance.


If your intent is simply to see if Mormons accept Evangelical notions, the answer is simple: they do not. As I have already noted, Mormons reject sola gratia and sola fides as both innovations of the 16th Century and absurdities. Mormons also reject ideas such as Original Sin or inerrancy as innovations and absurdities.

 

[Orontes]

The Apostle Paul makes exclusive claims in regards to the Jesus Christ that he personally knew, and exclusive claims about His proclamation of the gospel. If you do not know God through the Jesus Christ known by the Apostle Paul, this is what he writes in apostolic authority given to Him directly by Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul was chosen by God and set apart at birth to be God's instrument.

2 Thessalonians 1

We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Galatians 1

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paul Called by God

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Note: Mormons obviously accept all the above scriptural citations. This why revelation is considered essential and why Joseph Smith also saw Christ directly and was instructed personally by the same. It is also why "other gospels" i.e. the Evangelical variant fail: see earlier references to the innovations of sola gratia, sola fides etc.

 

[Katzpur]

Since the Apostle Paul wrote about half of the New Testament, it does not seem wise to write-off the Apostle Paul for apparent modern day prophets that are never mentioned in the Holy Bible. Don't you agree?

Who said anything about writing him off? When you say that modern-day prophets aren't mentioned in the Bible, I don't know what you're talking about. Would you have expected them to be mentioned by name? I don't recall any of the Old Testament prophets ever having referred to Paul by name either. This thread is getting sillier by the minute.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Who said anything about writing him off? When you say that modern-day prophets aren't mentioned in the Bible, I don't know what you're talking about. Would you have expected them to be mentioned by name? I don't recall any of the Old Testament prophets ever having referred to Paul by name either. This thread is getting sillier by the minute.[/color]

I think the New Testament Apostles referenced Old Testament prophets and Old Testament Scriptures. The Old Testament prophets are really pointing foward to the coming Christ which is the apex of God's revelation to mankind. God has already spoken authoratively and sufficiency in His Son Jesus Christ. God is not going back to Old Testament Prophets who pointed to Christ. Just mediate on Hebrews 1. Look to Christ alone as revealed through the Holy Bible. You have forsaken the Biblical Christ because you are listening to an inferior prophet than Christ. The Biblical Christ is the great high Priest, superior and final Prophet, and reigning King. There is no other revelation because Christ is the ultimate revelation to mankind. The Old Testament Prophets pointed forward to Christ. The New Testament Apostles pointed back to Christ. The New Testament Scriptures and the New Testament Apostles all point back to Jesus Christ because of the wisdom is found in Christ. The New Testament never points forward again to apparent modern day prophets, because they are completely unecessary since Jesus Christ came into the world.

Hebrews 1

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Col 1- The Supremacy of Christ

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul's Labor for the Church

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

 

[Katzpur]

I think the New Testament Apostles reference Old Testament prophets and Old Testament Scriptures. The Old Testament prophets are really pointing toward Christ which is the apex of the revelation of God to mankind. God has already spoken authratively and sufficiency in His Son Jesus Christ. God is not going back to Old Testament Prophets who pointed to Christ. Just mediate on Hebrews 1.

In Luke 11, Jesus Christ himself said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute..." He was speaking of something He was going to do in the future. Why would He have said that He intended to send prophets and apostles if there sole purpose was to prophesy of His coming. All prophets point to Christ as the Son of God and as the only means by which we may be offered salvation. It doesn't matter whether they lived before Christ, at the same time Christ lived, or after Christ returned to His Father's presence. I'm surprised you didn't know that. Hmmm... no wait a minute. That was in Luke. I guess it doesn't count then.