incest

[Magic Man]

mball
do you think that people who are against incest are just socially conditioned to not agree with it?

For the most part, yes. I do think there are other reasons, but I think that's the main one.

 

[+Xausted]

For the most part, yes. I do think there are other reasons, but I think that's the main one.

so
firstly;
were did that originate from? might there be reasons for it?
secondly:
are are morals socially defined, and therefore not truely intrinsic to our nature?



not dissing your opinion, just need you to qualify it

 

[Magic Man]

so
firstly;
were did that originate from? might there be reasons for it?
secondly:
are are morals socially defined, and therefore not truely intrinsic to our nature?



not dissing your opinion, just need you to qualify it

Firstly, I don't know where it came from specifically, but I would say the same place that saying homosexuality is wrong came from.

Second: Morals are definitely socially defined, and aren't intrinsic to our nature. That's why they change from culture to culture.

 

[+Xausted]

Firstly, I don't know where it came from specifically, but I would say the same place that saying homosexuality is wrong came from.
so what about the vast amounts of medical evidence that states that you increase the risk of having children with health problems (although i recognise that it doesnt CAUSE them, it means if there are any problems they are more likely to be passed on since you would share common genes). maybe that why people think it is wrong? because they found many moons ago that it doesnt always produce the healthiest people? surely that makes sense?
homosexualty doesnt create any problems for future generations, so any one against it had a flawed arguement from the off set. the arguements are different and not a fair comparison
Second: Morals are definitely socially defined, and aren't intrinsic to our nature. That's why they change from culture to culture.

i agree that all cultures have different moral codes but as a collective group they tend to be against incest. very few have ever agreed (i have heard of some African tribes that indulged in it, but cant remember were i read it so i am not sure how accurate it is)
i just dont get how you can think it is acceptable to have sex with a relative?
although the small proportion that do would never cause problems to others, it opens up a whole can of worms if it was allowed...abusers could claim it was entered into willingly (know this is not the case in this one but it could easily happen)

 

[Magic Man]

i agree that all cultures have different moral codes but as a collective group they tend to be against incest. very few have ever agreed (i have heard of some African tribes that indulged in it, but cant remember were i read it so i am not sure how accurate it is)
i just dont get how you can think it is acceptable to have sex with a relative?
although the small proportion that do would never cause problems to others, it opens up a whole can of worms if it was allowed...abusers could claim it was entered into willingly (know this is not the case in this one but it could easily happen)

You guys seem to forget the repeated statements on my part that I don't think incest is acceptable. I don't like the idea.

If it does actually cause problems in children, then that would make things different when talking about incest with having kids. That has no effect on just the incestuous relationship, though. If that is true, let's take children out of the equation, as I've said before. Just look at the relationship.

As to the point about deformed kids: People with dwarfism, or other diseases but this is a good example for this, are allowed to have kids even though there's a very good chance they'll end up with the same disease, considered by most to be a birth defect. What's the difference, there?

Homosexuality creates the problem that they can't produce offspring at all. The problem that presents to future generations is that there would be no future generations if everyone was doing that.

The case of abuse is irrelevant. Any relationship could be the product of abuse and coercion. Incest is no different from any other relationship in this way.

 

[+Xausted]

You guys seem to forget the repeated statements on my part that I don't think incest is acceptable. I don't like the idea.
I KNOW...ITS JUST FUN PUSHING YOUR BUTTONS!!!!
If it does actually cause problems in children, then that would make things different when talking about incest with having kids. That has no effect on just the incestuous relationship, though. If that is true, let's take children out of the equation, as I've said before. Just look at the relationship.
THEY CANT BE TAKEN OUT. SINCE ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP HAS THE POSSIBILTY OF PRODUCING CHILDREN, IT IS ALWAYS A FACTOR(exceptions only like me, who has no womb, but dont think we could take out all wombs of people that want to ener an incestuaous relationship though, ha ha ha)
As to the point about deformed kids: People with dwarfism, or other diseases but this is a good example for this, are allowed to have kids even though there's a very good chance they'll end up with the same disease, considered by most to be a birth defect. What's the difference, there?
not all birth defects are undesirable/unavioudable/horrible/unlivable with etc. since there is no knowing what will develope in the child, it is a bit like playing russian roulete. but then this is a debate on the quality of life...which is a whole different arguement
Homosexuality creates the problem that they can't produce offspring at all. The problem that presents to future generations is that there would be no future generations if everyone was doing that.
in an over populated world, it is not an issue. i understand that we have medical advancements to help with any health problems so that could be argued that also isnt an issue then. however, ...ER...IT IS JUST WRONG(YEAH, MY ARGUEMENT FAILING ISNT IT!!)
The case of abuse is irrelevant. Any relationship could be the product of abuse and coercion. Incest is no different from any other relationship in this way
the difference comes though:
if it was made legal, the abuser could claim that the abused had willingly entered into it. it is hard enough to prosecute anyone for abuse without this doubt being thrown in. if kids are told it is acceptable to have intercourse with memebers of their family them this helps justify the abusers claims.

 

[McBell]

Do you have children?

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My having children does not in any add NOR subtract to the validity of my argument.

wow he said many, how many? what are their religious perspective? what do they believe in? if you don't mind me asking...a bit curious about it. i'd ever met incests in my life or i did not know they were.

You likely have, just do not know it.
It is not something that is generally publicized.
Why?
because of the attitudes against it like those in this very thread.

Six.
Two couples are Christian.
one converted from Christian to Islam.
One couple is pagan.
One is Wiccan.
and one is atheist

i just dont get how you can think it is acceptable to have sex with a relative?

I fail to understand why those who are against are against it.
Other than for religious reasons.
But then it falls into the same "Yuck" factor category as same sex relations.
God said no therefore it is wrong.

although the small proportion that do would never cause problems to others, it opens up a whole can of worms if it was allowed...abusers could claim it was entered into willingly (know this is not the case in this one but it could easily happen)

And what pray tell can of worms is it going to open?

 

[+Xausted]

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My having children does not in any add NOR subtract to the validity of my argument.

i agree with this
You likely have, just do not know it.
It is not something that is generally publicized.
Why?
because of the attitudes against it like those in this very thread.


and one is atheist

well that will be me then, dont really get your point. my atheism has nothing to do with my opinion on incest.


I fail to understand why those who are against are against it.
Other than for religious reasons.
but i am not religious so that doesnt stand up
But then it falls into the same "Yuck" factor category as same sex relations.
no it doesnt. homosexuality in my opinion is no problem, why in fact....:drool:
God said no therefore it is wrong.
nope, think you will find that even in countries that dont/didnt follow your God also didnt agree with it. i refar you back to health problems statement (and yes i am aware that there are holes in my arguement that at some point i will try to iron out)
[/color]
And what pray tell can of worms is it going to open?

i refare you back to abuse.

i wish i had not started this thread

 

[McBell]

well that will be me then, dont really get your point. my atheism has nothing to do with my opinion on incest.

I am not making a point.
I am answering .lava's question. POST#197

nope, think you will find that even in countries that dont/didnt follow your God also didnt agree with it.

I do not claim any god, so perhaps you got me confused with someone else.
How would you know how many did or did not agree with incest?
You cannot possibly know the agree/disagreement ratio from times past nor in every country past OR present.
Therefore your above statement is without substance outside being your opinion.

i refar you back to health problems statement (and yes i am aware that there are holes in my arguement that at some point i will try to iron out)

The dog is still out on the alleged health issues.

i refare you back to abuse.

Does not work.
Merely saying "abuse" does not answer anything.

 

[+Xausted]

i am leaving this debate. not because i think you have won ,as your arguements are as flawed as mine,but it is getting silly now.


*jayne bows gracefully from the room*

 

[Magic Man]

You guys seem to forget the repeated statements on my part that I don't think incest is acceptable. I don't like the idea.
I KNOW...ITS JUST FUN PUSHING YOUR BUTTONS!!!!
If it does actually cause problems in children, then that would make things different when talking about incest with having kids. That has no effect on just the incestuous relationship, though. If that is true, let's take children out of the equation, as I've said before. Just look at the relationship.
THEY CANT BE TAKEN OUT. SINCE ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP HAS THE POSSIBILTY OF PRODUCING CHILDREN, IT IS ALWAYS A FACTOR(exceptions only like me, who has no womb, but dont think we could take out all wombs of people that want to ener an incestuaous relationship though, ha ha ha)
As to the point about deformed kids: People with dwarfism, or other diseases but this is a good example for this, are allowed to have kids even though there's a very good chance they'll end up with the same disease, considered by most to be a birth defect. What's the difference, there?
not all birth defects are undesirable/unavioudable/horrible/unlivable with etc. since there is no knowing what will develope in the child, it is a bit like playing russian roulete. but then this is a debate on the quality of life...which is a whole different arguement
Homosexuality creates the problem that they can't produce offspring at all. The problem that presents to future generations is that there would be no future generations if everyone was doing that.
in an over populated world, it is not an issue. i understand that we have medical advancements to help with any health problems so that could be argued that also isnt an issue then. however, ...ER...IT IS JUST WRONG(YEAH, MY ARGUEMENT FAILING ISNT IT!!)
The case of abuse is irrelevant. Any relationship could be the product of abuse and coercion. Incest is no different from any other relationship in this way
the difference comes though:
if it was made legal, the abuser could claim that the abused had willingly entered into it. it is hard enough to prosecute anyone for abuse without this doubt being thrown in. if kids are told it is acceptable to have intercourse with memebers of their family them this helps justify the abusers claims.

You can take out kids. For instance, birth control and procedures that take away people's ability to have kids. Not all couples want to have kids. For the sake of this argument, let's take the examples of people who do it with no intention of having kids, and take all the necessary steps to prevent it.

Anybody can claim that anyone forces them into their relationship. The relation of the two involved doesn't matter.

 

[McBell]

i am leaving this debate. not because i think you have won ,as your arguements are as flawed as mine,but it is getting silly now.


*jayne bows gracefully from the room*

I agree.
It is getting silly.
Your refusal {or is it inability?** to back up your statements has gotten not only silly, but rather frustrating.

 

[.lava]

Six.
Two couples are Christian.
one converted from Christian to Islam.
One couple is pagan.
One is Wiccan.
and one is atheist

2 Christians, 1 Muslim, 2 pagans, 1 wiccan and 1 atheist hahahaha
they should start a rock band
this is really like a joke


somehow i turn 6 into 7. anyways

 

[+Xausted]

I agree.
It is getting silly.
Your refusal {or is it inability?** to back up your statements has gotten not only silly, but rather frustrating.

WHOOO HOLD ON...
i accidently came back here by mistake (pressed wrong key)
i stated that it was getting silly...i could see it was about to get personal....and you are pushing it that way. just give it up. when i have had time to gather some evidence to disprove your comments i will return (but right now i have work to do,)
if you note my comments throughout this thread and all others, i tend to post light heartedly, as to avoid any of this stuff, i always say that it is only MY opinion and always state that until i can find the evidence (which is ACTUAL evidence rather than a cleverly worded opinion) i will step back
i care not for your tone

 

[McBell]

WHOOO HOLD ON...
i accidently came back here by mistake (pressed wrong key)
i stated that it was getting silly...i could see it was about to get personal....and you are pushing it that way. just give it up. when i have had time to gather some evidence to disprove your comments i will return (but right now i have work to do,)
if you note my comments throughout this thread and all others, i tend to post light heartedly, as to avoid any of this stuff, i always say that it is only MY opinion and always state that until i can find the evidence (which is ACTUAL evidence rather than a cleverly worded opinion) i will step back
i care not for your tone

I shall await your next reply.
Hopefully it will be informative...

 

[Magic Man]

Sorry, Jayne. Didn't mean to get you upset.

Mestemia, she does mean well, and she doesn't mean to insult. I know how what she said seemed, but, in this case, I know that she really didn't mean anything by it.

 

[DallasApple]

Of course this is only my personal feelings..But on Rheffs point about your own children? I PERSONALLY would be horrified if my children grew up and had a sexual relationship each other.Utterly horrified.And as well if one of my children had a sexual relationship with one of thier children.As well I would be MORTIFED if my husband and one of my children wanted to have sex with each other.Or if one of my children wanted to have a sexual relationship with me.Or my brother and sister did.Or my father or mother wanted to have sex with one of us.(me or my siblings)...Or if my siblings had a sexual relationship with my children..and so on...

Its an "instinct" a "gut feeling"..nothing I can pin point.

Having said that..thinking really hard about it I dotn feel that same sick feeling when it comes to more distant relatives.2nd and 3rd cousins?..I would be o.k with I think.

In other words if one of my sons had a child...and my niece or nepphew had a child..and those children paired up I would not have a heart attack..It would be weird beign that we have such a close relationship.But I think I coudl "accept" it.

Blessings

Dallas

 

[Magic Man]

Of course this is only my personal feelings..But on Rheffs point about your own children? I PERSONALLY would be horrified if my children grew up and had a sexual relationship each other.Utterly horrified.And as well if one of my children had a sexual relationship with one of thier children.As well I would be MORTIFED if my husband and one of my children wanted to have sex with each other.Or if one of my children wanted to have a sexual relationship with me.Or my brother and sister did.Or my father or mother wanted to have sex with one of us.(me or my siblings)...Or if my siblings had a sexual relationship with my children..and so on...

Its an "instinct" a "gut feeling"..nothing I can pin point.

Having said that..thinking really hard about it I dotn feel that same sick feeling when it comes to more distant relatives.2nd and 3rd cousins?..I would be o.k with I think.

In other words if one of my sons had a child...and my niece or nepphew had a child..and those children paired up I would not have a heart attack..It would be weird beign that we have such a close relationship.But I think I coudl "accept" it.

Blessings

Dallas

But, if your kids were 18+ years old, would you force them by any means necessary to not have sex with each other?

EDIT: Remember some parents are HORRIFIED when their kids turn out to be gay or not follow the parents' religion.

 

[DallasApple]

But, if your kids were 18+ years old, would you force them by any means necessary to not have sex with each other?

EDIT: Remember some parents are HORRIFIED when their kids turn out to be gay or not follow the parents' religion.

No I would not 'force" them....I would try and make sure they were emotionally and phychologically "fit"...I woudl express my feelings about it.i would not disown them or anything like that..I would be extremely distraught though.

And on your point about being gay..I have thought and thought about that as well..I wouldnt be "mortified" if one of them said "Im gay".I would not get that "sick" feeling.I would be "concerned" about the difficulties they might face due to hate and discremination.But I would have a much by far easier time accepting that with an open mind and heart as opposed to incest..I could never "accept" it or be at peace with it.

Blessings

Dallas

 

[Magic Man]

No I would not 'force" them....I would try and make sure they were emotionally and phychologically "fit"...I woudl express my feelings about it.i would not disown them or anything like that..I would be extremely distraught though.

And on your point about being gay..I have thought and thought about that as well..I wouldnt be "mortified" if one of them said "Im gay".I would not get that "sick" feeling.I would be "concerned" about the difficulties they might face due to hate and discremination.But I would have a much by far easier time accepting that with an open mind and heart as opposed to incest..I could never "accept" it or be at peace with it.

Blessings

Dallas

To the first part: I'm glad to hear that. Personally I think that's the way to go as a parent.

To the second part: I didn't mean to imply that you felt that way about homosexuality. My point was just to ask why the two things are different to you. What makes you draw the line between homosexuality and incest?