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Yusuf Estes

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Who is Ibn Taymiha? (Shia, Sunni or other) And what teaching is problematic that leads to extremism?

Ibn Taymiyah is considered a sunni scholar. His teachings were problematic because of his beliefs that Allah resides in a place, has a form and is not 'physically' present in everything and everywhere. This is contrary to hindu belief of God being in everything and everywhere and thus we are divine in some way.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ibn Taymiyah is considered a sunni scholar. His teachings were problematic because of his beliefs that Allah resides in a place, has a form and is not 'physically' present in everything and everywhere. This is contrary to hindu belief of God being in everything and everywhere and thus we are divine in some way.

Can you please give me your sources for the above opinions expressed by Ibn Taymiyah? in which of his books it was mentioned?

Thank you.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
In 'Aqidatil Wasitiyah" Ibn Taymiyah says:

"As-Samee' means the One Who hears all the sounds however hidden they are. He hears the secrets and the whispers also. Allah's Attribute of Hearing is not similar to the hearing of the creatures.

Al-Baseer as an attribute of Allah meaning that He sees all persons, colours and all tangible things however fine and remote they are. No curtain or impediment can obstruct His Vision. This word proves the attribute of sight for Allah in the most befitting manner for Him.

Abu Daud contains a Hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him): "When the Prophet (peace be upon him) recited the Quranic verse: "Truly, Allah is Ever All-Hearer, All-Seer" he put his thumb on his ears and the fingers close to the thumb on his eyes."

The Hadith means that Allah hears through His Ears and sees through His Eyes"


He says that Allah sees through his ears and his eyes. We do not know what Allah looks like and he never mentions that he has ears from which he listens and eyes from which he sees. Humans rely on eyes and ears to listen so Allah cannot be like us. Allah hears and sees, but we do not know how that hearing and seeing is. We do not know the unseen, Allah knows best.

In the next part, he says Allah literally has two hands just like humans:

"In a Hadith reported by Abdullah bin 'Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) it is mentioned: "Allah created three things with His own Hands. He created Adam with His own Hands: He wrote the Torah with His Hands and planted the Garden of Eden with His Hands."

Special mention of these three things, despite the fact that they came into existence along with other creatures through His Power, argues in favor of an additional feature in their creation.

Yadain (two hands) along with the grammatical form meant for two is recognized for real hands alone. It has never been used in the sense of power and favor. It will not be justified to say that Allah created them with His two powers or two favors, because to construe from hands the sense of power, favor or any other sense than these, is possible only for such a one who really possesses two hands. This cannot be stated for the wind that this is its hand or it is the hand of water.

The argument of the Mu'attilah that in some verses hand has been mentioned in singular number and in some in plural, is not valid, for some work is done by both the hands but according to usage the hand is mentioned in singular such as when it is said, 'I saw with my eye,' or 'I heard with my own ear,' but what is really meant is that I saw with my both eyes or heard with my both ears. Moreover sometimes a singular pronoun stands for the plural. Such as Allah says: "If you two (wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) ,namely 'Aishah and Hafsah (may Allah be pleased with them) turn in repentance to Allah, (it will be better for you), your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet (peace be upon him) likes)." (Surah At Tahrim, 66:4)

Despite the fact that the Arabic grammar is against it, the meaning understood is "two hearts."

How can 'hand' be interpreted to mean power when the text proves mentioning of palm, fingers, right and left, closing, opening, etc. Which can happen only in the case of a real hand.

In the second verse, Allah describes a statement of the Jews in which they found fault with Allah and (Allah forbid me) they described an attribute of His construing to mean that His Hand is miserly in spending. On the contrary, Allah proves liberality for His Self, that is, His both Hands are open to grant and to be generous. He spends as He likes. It has been mentioned in a Hadith that: "The Right Hand of Allah is generous day and night and His Generosity does not decrease by spending."

Look, if Allah did not have real hands how would this interpretation of keeping them open be correct?"
 
Last edited:

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In 'Aqidatil Wasitiyah" Ibn Taymiyah says:

"As-Samee'
means the One Who hears all the sounds however hidden they are. He hears the secrets and the whispers also. Allah's Attribute of Hearing is not similar to the hearing of the creatures.

Al-Baseer
as an attribute of Allah meaning that He sees all persons, colours and all tangible things however fine and remote they are. No curtain or impediment can obstruct His Vision. This word proves the attribute of sight for Allah in the most befitting manner for Him.

Abu Daud contains a Hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him): "When the Prophet (peace be upon him) recited the Quranic verse: "Truly, Allah is Ever All-Hearer, All-Seer" he put his thumb on his ears and the fingers close to the thumb on his eyes."

The Hadith means that Allah hears through His Ears and sees through His Eyes"

He says that Allah sees through his ears and his eyes. We do not know what Allah looks like and he never mentions that he has ears from which he listens and eyes from which he sees. Humans rely on eyes and ears to listen so Allah cannot be like us. Allah hears and sees, but we do not know how that hearing and seeing is. We do not know the unseen, Allah knows best.

In the nest part, he says Allah literally has two hands just like humans:

"In a Hadith reported by Abdullah bin 'Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) it is mentioned: "Allah created three things with His own Hands. He created Adam with His own Hands: He wrote the Torah with His Hands and planted the Garden of Eden with His Hands."

Special mention of these three things, despite the fact that they came into existence along with other creatures through His Power, argues in favor of an additional feature in their creation.

Yadain (two hands) along with the grammatical form meant for two is recognized for real hands alone. It has never been used in the sense of power and favor. It will not be justified to say that Allah created them with His two powers or two favors, because to construe from hands the sense of power, favor or any other sense than these, is possible only for such a one who really possesses two hands. This cannot be stated for the wind that this is its hand or it is the hand of water.

The argument of the Mu'attilah that in some verses hand has been mentioned in singular number and in some in plural, is not valid, for some work is done by both the hands but according to usage the hand is mentioned in singular such as when it is said, 'I saw with my eye,' or 'I heard with my own ear,' but what is really meant is that I saw with my both eyes or heard with my both ears. Moreover sometimes a singular pronoun stands for the plural. Such as Allah says: "If you two (wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) ,namely 'Aishah and Hafsah (may Allah be pleased with them) turn in repentance to Allah, (it will be better for you), your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet (peace be upon him) likes)." (Surah At Tahrim, 66:4)

Despite the fact that the Arabic grammar is against it, the meaning understood is "two hearts."

How can 'hand' be interpreted to mean power when the text proves mentioning of palm, fingers, right and left, closing, opening, etc. Which can happen only in the case of a real hand.

In the second verse, Allah describes a statement of the Jews in which they found fault with Allah and (Allah forbid me) they described an attribute of His construing to mean that His Hand is miserly in spending. On the contrary, Allah proves liberality for His Self, that is, His both Hands are open to grant and to be generous. He spends as He likes. It has been mentioned in a Hadith that: "The Right Hand of Allah is generous day and night and His Generosity does not decrease by spending."

Look, if Allah did not have real hands how would this interpretation of keeping them open be correct?"

Well, i didn't expect your problem with him was about these topics, since they are advanced topics. Anyhow, it seems to me you have a problem with the hadiths he quoted to support his argument. Am i right to assume this?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Well, i didn't expect your problem with him was about these topics, since they are advanced topics. Anyhow, it seems to me you have a problem with the hadiths he quoted to support his argument. Am i right to assume this?

It's due to these advanced topics that Muhammed bin Abdul Wahhab said all those before him for 800 years had incorrect belief about Allah and called all of them Kuffar, this included the followers of the Madhhabs which is why in return his brother issued a fatwa saying Muhammed bin Abdul Wahhab is a kaffir.

This is the problem with Wahabism/Salafism/Alhul Hadith.

My problem is not the hadith, it's how he uses them to bring a new meaning. That Allah has two hands literally or that he only hears and sees with his eyes and ears.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's due to these advanced topics that Muhammed bin Abdul Wahhab said all those before him for 800 years had incorrect belief about Allah and called all of them Kuffar, this included the followers of the Madhhabs which is why in return his brother issued a fatwa saying Muhammed bin Abdul Wahhab is a kaffir.

This is the problem with Wahabism/Salafism/Alhul Hadith.

My problem is not the hadith, it's how he uses them to bring a new meaning. That Allah has two hands literally or that he only hears and sees with his eyes and ears.

Sorry if i misunderstood, but isn't that what the hadith says? i don't see Ibn Taymiah adding anything that wasn't mentioned in the hadith itself he was quoting.

By the way, do you think Ibn Taymiah is an evil man who want to misguide the Muslims on purpose or he was mujtahid?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed he was mujtahid,his opinions could taken or leave it.

If he was just another mujtahid, then we only stick to the Quran and Hadith and leave what the previous generations said or did for Allah to judge if it was correct or not, and we should care now more about our current affairs like how to be united and increase in knowledge about Islam.

Also, just because someone quote the previous scholars that doesn't automatically make us categorize them under a specific group or sect and dismiss them altogether.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
If he was just another mujtahid, then we only stick to the Quran and Hadith and leave what the previous generations said or did for Allah to judge if it was correct or not, and we should care now more about our current affairs like how to be united and increase in knowledge about Islam.

Also, just because someone quote the previous scholars that doesn't automatically make us categorize them under a specific group or sect and dismiss them altogether.
Very well said
 
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