Your FAVORITE house of worship!

[ayani]

wow- i didn't know it was a museum now. cool!

though i agree with James, i'd like to see it used again as a Christian house of worship.

the Blue Mosque is gorgeous, as well. it looks huge! how many worshipers does it get weekly, do you know?

 

[Djamila]

Oh James, we found something we could really get into a fight about now. Want to? Hahaha, kidding.

Well, I don't see any harm is allowed Aya Sofya to be used as a Church. Houses of worship, to me, are on a different level of debate. If this was some Byzantine palace, now a Turkish military museum, that the Orthodox Christians wanted to turn into a museum of Christian heritage, I'd oppose it full stop - without compromise. But a place of worship deserves considerations you would not normally give.

I think, at the very least, it would be lovely to allow services at Aya Sofya on a regular basis. The whole reason people visit this building is to see its Christian icons, its Islamic murals, and so on. Being able to see all this and take a peek at a church service would give the building a heart back.

But I'll never admit that to you (Oops ).

They couldn't even get a proper mosque in Athens for the Olympics. Upon Greece's independence, they destroyed most everything in their country related to the Ottoman Empire. It's such a difference in Turkey, such a more sophisticated approach to life and especially to architecture and historical preservation.

They don't deserve Aya Sofya, not after all they've done to the immense Islamic heritage in this part of the world.

Beat that.

 

[Djamila]

Some pretty views of Aya Sofya and the Blue Mosque here:

istanbul

I love Istanbul's travel commercials.

 

[James the Persian]

Oh James, we found something we could really get into a fight about now. Want to? Hahaha, kidding.

Well, I don't see any harm is allowed Aya Sofya to be used as a Church. Houses of worship, to me, are on a different level of debate. If this was some Byzantine palace, now a Turkish military museum, that the Orthodox Christians wanted to turn into a museum of Christian heritage, I'd oppose it full stop - without compromise. But a place of worship deserves considerations you would not normally give.

I think, at the very least, it would be lovely to allow services at Aya Sofya on a regular basis. The whole reason people visit this building is to see its Christian icons, its Islamic murals, and so on. Being able to see all this and take a peek at a church service would give the building a heart back.

But I'll never admit that to you (Oops ).

They couldn't even get a proper mosque in Athens for the Olympics. Upon Greece's independence, they destroyed most everything in their country related to the Ottoman Empire. It's such a difference in Turkey, such a more sophisticated approach to life and especially to architecture and historical preservation.

They don't deserve Aya Sofya, not after all they've done to the immense Islamic heritage in this part of the world.

Beat that.

I'll not try to defend the Greeks and their excessive nationalism (I used to worship in a Greek church because I had no other choice and I've no desire ever to do so again - there's an Orthodox satirical site called the Onion Dome that once 'reported' from 'All the Greek Saints of Greece Very Greek Very Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church'. That was so close to the truth it almost wasn't funny) but you really are attempting to let the Turks off lightly (and I never said Greece should have Haghia Sophia anyway).

The Turks likewise closed and destroyed churches. Many were confisctaed and turned into mosques. Others were turned into secular buildings. They've also closed and refused to reopen the seminary in Halki, have put ludicrous restrictions on who can and can't be a bishop in the Ecumenical Patriarchate and even refuse to recognise that the Patriarach of Constantinople is first among equals in the Orthodox Church rather than just the 'ethnarch' of Hellenic Turks. They are not at all a civilised country.

And those are just issues that are more recent. Whereas the 'population exchange' was peaceful in the main on the Greek side (amazingly enough), it was incredibly violent on the Turkish side with numerous tortures and executions and the burning of an entire city along with its inhabitants (Smyrna, modern Izmir). And that's not even mentioning the Armenian genocide (they may be OO but they're still Christians). The Turks have a very poor history of granting religious rights to minorities, much worse even than many countries, Greece included, in the Balkans.

James

 

[Djamila]

I consider Greece to be worse than Turkey, though this is probably just cultural.

But what you've said about the the Greeks Saints Very Greek Very Orthodox Greek Church - hahaha. Oh have mercy. There was a comedy show in Bosnia in which the Greek character was a 200 kilo, hairy midgit who spoke only in verses from the Bible and wore nothing but a speedo and a giant Orthodox cross, his bling bling. (And before you think we're THAT prejudiced, the Bosnian on the show was a village hick mirroring the Mujo character in our jokes, the Croat was a not-hiding-it-well Nazi, and the Serb was a having an affair the Albanian, who owned an ice-cream parlor - lol).

I think if the man asking Turkey's government to allow Christian services at Aya Sofya told that joke, he might get what he wants. Turkey was very unsuccessful in one regard - differentiating between "Ours and "Theirs". It doesn't matter what Israel does, for example, for Bosnian or Iranian Jews. A majority of people in both country see them as "Our Jews", and have nothing to do with Israel.

Turkey doesn't have this. Many Christians in Turkey (not all, not all Christian groups nor all from each group) might as well be called Greek squatters. They're considered not to be a part of the Turkish nation. And this comes with good reason, of course. Christians in Turkey have tried to undermine that country's very existence at several key points in Turkish history. In so far as genocide can have a "reason", that was the reason for the Armenian genocide. Now I don't the English to express that clearly, so don't think I'm saying this is why it happened, and that's okay! It's not okay at all, I just want to convey why the people in Turkey wanted to do something.

For me, and I assume for other Balkan Muslims including Turks, the main issue is pride. And there is just such a tension with Greece, they have an even worse reputation in Bosnia than do the Serbs. It wasn't Serb soldiers who raised Serbia's flag over Srebrenica after the massacre in 1995, it was Greek volunteers and the Greek flag. So giving anything in Istanbul to Orthodox Christians seems to be rewarding them, or not saving face.

Do you understand the emotion? I don't mean do you agree, but do you understand what I'm expressing?

 

[Djamila]

I also made you a present, James. And you have go see it before you force me to delete it out of Balkan pride. lol Kidding, of course, but go look! http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37688

 

[Djamila]

Hahaha, James. My sister noticed I was laughing in that way I do when I'm... feeling the way you do when you roll your eyes at something stupid funny. Anyhow, I related to her our discussion and she said:

Give it to the Macedonian Orthodox Church, I'd convert myself.

LOL

 

[James the Persian]

Hahaha, James. My sister noticed I was laughing in that way I do when I'm... feeling the way you do when you roll your eyes at something stupid funny. Anyhow, I related to her our discussion and she said:

Give it to the Macedonian Orthodox Church, I'd convert myself.

LOL

But the Macedonian Orthodox Church isn't Orthodox (they're schismatics), so even if she did convert she still wouldn't be Orthodox.

James

 

[Peace]

One of the most beautiful mosques along with that of Mecca is the Prophet's mosque in Madinah.

 

[ayani]

it looks lovely all lit up, Peace.

am i right in remembering that only Muslims are allowed there?

 

[BruceDLimber]

4 million makes it the most visited building in the world? Are you sure? I vaguely remember hearing numbers much larger than that in reference to abscure European museums. And surely the Grand Mosque at Mecca gets more than that annually?

Hi again!

Those are the correct numbers as I understand it.

Probably the numbers for European museums are split between many, many sites so that no single museum has that many visitors....

And as to Mecca, I'm afraid it's not open to the public.

So I think the numbers stand.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Peace]

it looks lovely all lit up, Peace.

Yes indeed; it's very beautiful and lovely place.

am i right in remembering that only Muslims are allowed there?

Yes, Muslims are only the ones who are allowed to enter it.

Peace

 

[ayani]

personally, my favorite place to worship is by an open field when the sun rises, or when it sets.

 

[Super Universe]

Why not allow that one religious building (Aya Sofia?) to have Muslim, Christian, and Orthodox services?

 

[Ody]

Why not allow that one religious building (Aya Sofia?) to have Muslim, Christian, and Orthodox services?

I see no reason on why not.
Wasn't it an Eastern Orthodox Church in the first place? I think it was.

 

[Djamila]

I don't think its necessary. The building has no significant divine purpose for Muslims, other than that it was a mosque for most of its history. For Christians it has a more significant purpose, one which is - politically - an undesirable sentiment in Turkey. So I can't imagine anything changing.

If everyone involved was like JamesThePersian, there'd be no problem. But many people aren't, on both sides.

 

[Djamila]

I can't believe I forgot this one.

The stunning Painted Mosque of Tetovo, Macedonia.

And the 'Open Mosque' of Prizren, Kosovo. This mosque isn't ruined, it was built this way, to be open to the community (which is torn between Muslim Bosniaks, Muslim Albanians, Roman Catholic Albanians, and formerly also Orthodox Christian Serbs).

 

[James the Persian]

Why not allow that one religious building (Aya Sofia?) to have Muslim, Christian, and Orthodox services?

Firstly, we Orthodox are Christians.

Secondly, Haghia Sophia was built as the cathedral church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. It was the most important church in Christendom at the time of its construction and still is for us. To borrow Djamila's way of explaining things, would you understand the emotion that the Muslims might feel if we were to occupy Saudi Arabia for 500 years, turn the mosque of the Prophet into a church and then later a museum? That's roughly the situation we have with Haghia Sophia.

And finally, the turning of Haghia Sophia into a mosque was a desecration and consequently it would have to be reconsecrated. Once that was done it would be impossible for any muslim to hold services in there just as it would be impossible for Orthodox to hold Liturgies in a mosque. In fact, it would be impossible even for heterodox Christians to serve at the altar once that was done. It simply is not possible for us to share the building with muslims and, whilst it would not be without precedent to share a church with the heterodox, that would require seperate altars and there is no call for such a sitution at all. The only place where such a setup does exist, so far as I'm aware, is in the Holy Land.

James

 

[James the Persian]

I don't think its necessary. The building has no significant divine purpose for Muslims, other than that it was a mosque for most of its history. For Christians it has a more significant purpose, one which is - politically - an undesirable sentiment in Turkey. So I can't imagine anything changing.

If everyone involved was like JamesThePersian, there'd be no problem. But many people aren't, on both sides.

Djamila,

Thanks for the compliment. I'd just like to make a small correction, though. For most of its history Haghia Sophia was the cathedral church of Constantinople, not a mosque. The present church was built by the Emperor Justinian between 532 and 537 (incredibly fast!) and in fact was a replacement for the earlier cathedral on the same spot built by Constantius II, son of Constantine (so fourth century). That one was burnt down in the Nika riots. It was not converted into a mosque, obviously, until after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 and it was turned into a museum during the 20th century, so that's 900 years as a cathedral (1100 if you count the building that was burnt down), 500 as a mosque and less than 100 as a museum.

James

 

[eudaimonia]

Frank Lloyd Wright's Unity Temple (Unitarian Universalist):

I have visited the Laie Hawaii Temple (Mormon). It's serene and beautiful.

I have also visited a Zen Buddhist temple in Hawaii. It is a recreation of an older temple from Japan, I believe.

eudaimonia,

Mark