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You are a horrible man/woman in God's eyes!

When compared to the sins of someone like Saddam Hussein, your sins might seem small in your own eyes. You might think to yourself, I am really a nice guy/gal. You might think your life is pretty okay and most likely you will make it to heaven. After all, you never steal, never commit murder and is faithful to your spouse. Dear friend, when a child rapist compares himself or herself to someone like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, he will think of himself as a nice guy. But, is he really nice? Anyone will tell you a child rapist is a horrible man. Yet, compared to someone like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, he will seem a saint in his own eyes.
It is the same for yourself. When you compare your morality with a child rapist, you might think of yourself as a nice guy/gal. But what if you compare yourself with the holiness of God? God, who is perfectly righteous and holy consider telling a lie a terrible sin. Do you ever tell a lie? If you do, that takes away any nice guy/gal image you may think to portray yourself in God's eyes. God look at you as a bad guy/gal because you tell a lie. That is because compared to your morality, God's morality is so much higher. God keeps all His promises and never tells a lie. You are a liar and that means, in God's eyes, you deserve to go to hell. God, who is perfectly just, cannot spare you from hell just like how you, who think you are a nice guy/gal, cannot spare a child rapist from jail and how a child rapist, with still some conscience in himself, cannot spare someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler from the justice he deserves.
Therefore, even if you never steal or murder or commit adultery, as long as you ever tell a lie or break a promise or disappoint your father/mother, you are heading for hell. You are not going to heaven as you might think. And hell, I tell you, is a terrible place. It is a place of extreme heat and utter thirst. Nothing in your life, no matter how bad it is, can be compared to hell.
So, what can you do to avoid hell? Well, Jesus is the answer. Jesus, the only man on earth who never tell a lie or break a promise or commits any sin, and the only man who deserved to make it to heaven on His own merit, came down to earth 2000 years ago to die for your sins. He chose to die in your place that you might live in what is His place.
However, to avoid hell, you have to make the free choice to accept Jesus as your savior. You need to confess your sins to God, accept that you cannot make it to heaven on your own merit and invite Jesus into your life as your savior.
That way, when God looks at you, He no longer sees your sins but Jesus' righteousness. Jesus had traded place with you. God cannot punish sin twice. Since He punished your sins by punishing Jesus, He will never punish you. Your sins had been placed on Jesus when He died on the cross for you. When God looks at you now, He sees a holy man/woman, one who deserves to make it to heaven. You have moved from eternal death in hell to eternal life in heaven.
Won't you accept Jesus into your life before it is too late? If you want to accept Jesus, say out loud and mean it, "Father, I confess I am a sinner. I accept Jesus into my life as my savior. From now on, I will do my best to obey your will in my life. Thank you for sending Jesus to die on the cross for me." Have you prayed that prayer? If so, congratulation, you are now a perfect man/woman in God's eyes. Find a good church where the members love Jesus to continue your journey with God.
And I will meet you in heaven one day, my beloved brother/sister-in Christ!
 

Saint Frankenstein

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Premium Member
"You are a horrible man/woman in God's eyes!"
Says who? You?

I also reject penal substitution theory, which makes God out to be some sort of bloodthirsty monster. I see no evidence that God wanted Jesus or anyone else to be tortured to death. If you actually read the Gospel account of Christ's passion, the Father wasn't pleased with us for killing His Son. But Christ interceded for us by saying "forgive them, Father, they know not what they do".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
"You are a horrible man/woman in God's eyes!"
Says who? You?

I also reject penal substitution theory, which makes God out to be some sort of bloodthirsty monster. I see no evidence that God wanted Jesus or anyone else to be tortured to death. If you actually read the Gospel account of Christ's passion, the Father wasn't pleased with us for killing His Son. But Christ interceded for us by saying "forgive them, Father, they know not what they do".

If you read Isa 53 you can see the role of Jesus. To bear our sins, to die as a sin offering.
This does not mean that God was pleased with those who killed Him however.
Jesus interceded for those who were crucifying Him, to whom it was a job and without evil intent. It is those who intended His murder that Jesus did not intercede for with that prayer and He was not praying for us with that prayer.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
I think we should all accept that we are nothing but filthy rags in everything we do each day. We are a fallen mankind and separated from God by the sins of our fathers and ourselves. Having said that, i am not a believer in the idea that "we owe it to God" to repent. God freely gave His life for us...it is a gift.
Christ pleads with us to have faith, he does not demand it under the threat of military attack if we don't. The gospel is a positive thing, not negative...christ specifically preached the opposite of the legalism that the phrases and Sadducees had taught over centuries. Of course the wages of sin are very specific and those who reject the gospel will die, that is obvious, however, the focus should be on salvation not death.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"You are a horrible man/woman in God's eyes!"
Says who? You?

I also reject penal substitution theory, which makes God out to be some sort of bloodthirsty monster. I see no evidence that God wanted Jesus or anyone else to be tortured to death. If you actually read the Gospel account of Christ's passion, the Father wasn't pleased with us for killing His Son. But Christ interceded for us by saying "forgive them, Father, they know not what they do".

Hi @chongjasmine

I also agree with @Saint Frankenstein that assuming all sins are the same is illogical and the adoption of the later theory that a Loving God that tortures a morally imperfect but steadily improving child forever in a fire-filled hell is counterproductive to faith in a "Loving" Father.

The "light switch" theological position that one MUST accept Jesus in this life in order to avoid hell is also an untenable theory since much of the worlds population, historically, (such as an African herdsman from 600 b.c) has never had a chance to even hear of Jesus.

For a Father to torture a child because the Father himself placed the child in a situation where they could not accept truths they were never exposed to creates a concept of a capricious and unfair God. Such modern Christian theories are, in my opinion, much, much less fair than the earliest forms of Christian doctrines where those who do not have a chance to hear and accept doctrinal and moral truths in this live will hear them in the spirit world after death.

NOT ALL SINS ARE EQUALLY EVIL
The "white lie" that says to a child they did a "good job" cleaning their room when, the truth is that it was a terrible job is not the same as Murder. The same holds true whether it is a child trying their best but doing a poor job or if the "white lie" was encouragement meant to bouy up a depressed co-worker.

THE FATHER OF MANKIND DOES VALUE THE PROCESS OF MORAL IMPROVEMENT
In Ancient Christianity, it was clear that mankind was given free agency and that imperfect, but improving attempts to do good was part of the process of discipleship. For example, the first century Christian didache advises all of us : “If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then do what you can.”

THE FATHER OF MANKIND DID NOT CONDEMN MORALLY STRIVING INDIVIDUALS TO A TORTUROUS HELL IN EARLY CHRISTIAN THINKING

While those who actually and fully rejected moral progress after they were given adequate opportunity and knowledge of moral progress did suffer torment, the early descriptions of this torment seem to describe mental torment and self condemnation due to their refusal to progress and loss of opportunity and benefit of having progressed as others chose to do.

For example, in the apocalypse of Baruch describes the righteous in the judgement as "those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their hearts – their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty so that they may acquire and receive the undying world which is promised to them..." while those who suffer and "...will be sad, because they despised my Law and stopped their ears lest they hear wisdom and receive intelligence. When they, therefore, will see that those over whom they are exalted now will then be more exalted and glorified than they..."


EARLY CHRISTIANITY BELIEVED IN A MECHANISM FOR THOSE WHO DID NOT RECEIVE THE GOSPEL IN THIS LIFE TO RECIEVE THE TRUTH AFTER THEY DIED


In New Testament Matthew 27:52-53 the narrative relates that after the resurrection of Jesus, others were resurrected with him “and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (NIV)

As the early saints were marveling at the resurrection of these individuals, The early Gospel of Nicodemus describes this period of time relating
"Joseph says: And why do you wonder that Jesus has risen? But it is wonderful that He has not risen alone, but that He has also raised many others of the dead who have appeared in Jerusalem to many. And if you do not know the others, Symeon at least, who received Jesus, and his two sons whom He has raised up-them at least you know. For we buried them not long ago; but now their tombs are seen open and empty, and they are alive, and dwelling in Arimathaea. They therefore sent men, and they found their tombs open and empty. Joseph says: Let us go to Arimathaea and find them."

As the men arrive in Arimathaea and find the sons of Symeon, they ask what the world of spirits was like.

We then were in Hades, with all who had fallen asleep since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose a light as if of the sun, and shone into these dark regions; and we were all lighted up, and saw each other. And straightway our father Abraham was united with the patriarchs and the prophets, and at the same time they were filled with joy, and said to each other: This light is from a great source of light. The prophet Hesaias, who was there present, said: This light is from the Father, and from the Son, and from the Holy Spirit; about whom I prophesied when yet alive..."

The early Christian texts make clear that the Early Christians believed that all individuals who had ever lived were in this world of spirits and were cognisant and able to communicate. The individuals who were there continued to be taught by the apostles and disciples. Thus the narrative says that "While John, therefore, was thus teaching those in Hades, the first created and forefather Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish thee to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent thee, when it fell to my lot to die."

Seth then relates the story where Adam could not receive of the fruit or oil of the tree of life, but was given the promise of a savior and a resurrection and future immortality and that the entry of the Savior as a spirit into the world of spirits was part of the fulfillment of this promise of a resurrection.

The story ends with the two resurrected brothers saying : "All these things we saw and heard; we, the two brothers, who also have been sent by Michael the archangel, and have been ordered to proclaim the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go away to the Jordan and to be baptized. Thither also we have gone, and have been baptized with the rest of the dead who have risen. Thereafter also we came to Jerusalem, and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we are going away, being unable to stay here. And the love of God, even the Father, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Thus, according to the mercy and plan of God, in early Christian worldview, the sons of the Jewish Rabbi Symeon and all others who had not had adequate chance to hear the gospel were given the chance to accept it and were also given the opportunity for baptism and for resurrection and immortality in a social heaven in eternal joy and harmony.

In relating early Christian doctrines, I am not saying that that later western Christian movements with their new doctrines and new interpretations do not have any logical or true doctrines but merely that early Christianity seems to be more fair, more rational, and more intuitive than the many later theological theories and beliefs.

Individuals who are sincerely trying to do the best they can in living moral and productive lives are NOT horrible people, but instead are the salt of the earth and are to be encouraged and honored for any attempt they make to live higher moral standards to the extent that they are able to do so.


Clear
ακφυτωω
 
Last edited:

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
When compared to the sins of someone like Saddam Hussein, your sins might seem small in your own eyes. You might think to yourself, I am really a nice guy/gal. You might think your life is pretty okay and most likely you will make it to heaven. After all, you never steal, never commit murder and is faithful to your spouse. Dear friend, when a child rapist compares himself or herself to someone like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, he will think of himself as a nice guy. But, is he really nice? Anyone will tell you a child rapist is a horrible man. Yet, compared to someone like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, he will seem a saint in his own eyes.
It is the same for yourself. When you compare your morality with a child rapist, you might think of yourself as a nice guy/gal. But what if you compare yourself with the holiness of God? God, who is perfectly righteous and holy consider telling a lie a terrible sin. Do you ever tell a lie? If you do, that takes away any nice guy/gal image you may think to portray yourself in God's eyes. God look at you as a bad guy/gal because you tell a lie. That is because compared to your morality, God's morality is so much higher. God keeps all His promises and never tells a lie. You are a liar and that means, in God's eyes, you deserve to go to hell. God, who is perfectly just, cannot spare you from hell just like how you, who think you are a nice guy/gal, cannot spare a child rapist from jail and how a child rapist, with still some conscience in himself, cannot spare someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler from the justice he deserves.
Therefore, even if you never steal or murder or commit adultery, as long as you ever tell a lie or break a promise or disappoint your father/mother, you are heading for hell. You are not going to heaven as you might think. And hell, I tell you, is a terrible place. It is a place of extreme heat and utter thirst. Nothing in your life, no matter how bad it is, can be compared to hell.
So, what can you do to avoid hell? Well, Jesus is the answer. Jesus, the only man on earth who never tell a lie or break a promise or commits any sin, and the only man who deserved to make it to heaven on His own merit, came down to earth 2000 years ago to die for your sins. He chose to die in your place that you might live in what is His place.
However, to avoid hell, you have to make the free choice to accept Jesus as your savior. You need to confess your sins to God, accept that you cannot make it to heaven on your own merit and invite Jesus into your life as your savior.
That way, when God looks at you, He no longer sees your sins but Jesus' righteousness. Jesus had traded place with you. God cannot punish sin twice. Since He punished your sins by punishing Jesus, He will never punish you. Your sins had been placed on Jesus when He died on the cross for you. When God looks at you now, He sees a holy man/woman, one who deserves to make it to heaven. You have moved from eternal death in hell to eternal life in heaven.
Won't you accept Jesus into your life before it is too late? If you want to accept Jesus, say out loud and mean it, "Father, I confess I am a sinner. I accept Jesus into my life as my savior. From now on, I will do my best to obey your will in my life. Thank you for sending Jesus to die on the cross for me." Have you prayed that prayer? If so, congratulation, you are now a perfect man/woman in God's eyes. Find a good church where the members love Jesus to continue your journey with God.
And I will meet you in heaven one day, my beloved brother/sister-in Christ!
So you think one can lose their salvation? If someone who is Christian rapes, steals, etc, he or she is going to hell?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Sand Dancer asked : "So you think one can lose their salvation? If someone who is Christian rapes, steals, etc, he or she is going to hell?" (post #6)

Hi @Sand Dancer

You asked this question of @chongjasmine and while awaiting her answer (and for the sake of conversation about this subject), however I'd like to comment on this specific question as well.

I certainly agree with the ancient Christian texts that tell us that in the earliest form of historical Christianity (before the later Christian movements created the doctrine of "Once saved, always saved"), a Christian that firmly believed Jesus was the Messiah but then raped a child, or tortured and intentionally and brutally oppressed other innocents certainly was NOT rewarded with entry into a social heaven that was characterized by social harmony and eternal joy.

Clear
νεειφιω
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
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