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YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19¶For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The Father did not Die on the cross.

Right - The Father did not die on the cross. But the body he took on did. Acts 20:28 says ...feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Father was the eternal Spirit of God. The Son was the fleshly body the Father made to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins. But it is not 2 different persons. God was dwelling in that fleshly body. 2 Corinthians 5:19
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
there isn't this oneness vs some otherness. that is the problem with most dualistic believers/worshippers. there is no otherness at the Absolute. there is no duality.

this is what is being expressed. there is no duality. there is only this ONE ABSOLUTE everywhere and at all times. worshipping one god like there is some other god besides is the confusion by a dualist.
ok, what's a dualist?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The source is the mediator?

Does mediator have a different definition in scripture?

The fleshly body the source took on was the mediator.

God loved mankind so much that he took on a fleshly body, lived a perfect life, then sacrificed that fleshly body for our sins, to show us how to live, and prove how much he loved us.

Trinitarians think God is 3 different persons, but he isn't. He was a Spirit that didn't have flesh and blood to sacrifice for our sins. So he made himself a body that could shed blood for our sins. The Spirit was the Father of that body, so he called it his Son. But it wasn't another person. It was the one and only God manifesting himself in a fleshly body. The Spirit was eternal and couldn't die, but the body was flesh and blood and could die.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The fleshly body the source took on was the mediator.

God loved mankind so much that he took on a fleshly body, lived a perfect life, then sacrificed that fleshly body for our sins, to show us how to live, and prove how much he loved us.

That wouldn't be a trinity. It would be a unity since incarnations, by definition, is the same as the source. If the flesh is sin (therefore jesus died to get rid of it), then god/creator couldn't become flesh. It would contradict his nature. It also contradicts that the flesh can be perfect for jesus but not for other humans yet he still had to die and get rid of his flesh for others to do the same. If jesus' flesh is perfect (he's sinless) then he can't take on sin (be human). God can't be in the same "room" as sin so he wouldn't have been able to die for others unless he was a sinner.

In other words, if jesus were the creator he couldn't die for others because unless he is a sinner he can't take on the sins of the world without it contradicting who he is incarnation or not.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
That wouldn't be a trinity. It would be a unity since incarnations, by definition, is the same as the source. If the flesh is sin (therefore jesus died to get rid of it), then god/creator couldn't become flesh. It would contradict his nature. It also contradicts that the flesh can be perfect for jesus but not for other humans yet he still had to die and get rid of his flesh for others to do the same. If jesus' flesh is perfect (he's sinless) then he can't take on sin (be human). God can't be in the same "room" as sin so he wouldn't have been able to die for others unless he was a sinner.

In other words, if jesus were the creator he couldn't die for others because unless he is a sinner he can't take on the sins of the world without it contradicting who he is incarnation or not.

Read my post again. I think I added to it some while you were responding. Your post doesn't make sense to me - He had to be perfect, to be the perfect sacrifice. Your answer is not scriptural, it's just human thinking and reasoning. Where did you get the idea that he has to be a sinner to take on the sins of the world? It's just the opposite. He had to be the perfect sacrifice.
 
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JerryMyers

Active Member
The fleshly body the source took on was the mediator.

God loved mankind so much that he took on a fleshly body, lived a perfect life, then sacrificed that fleshly body for our sins, to show us how to live, and prove how much he loved us.

Trinitarians think God is 3 different persons, but he isn't. He was a Spirit that didn't have flesh and blood to sacrifice for our sins. So he made himself a body that could shed blood for our sins. The Spirit was the Father of that body, so he called it his Son. But it wasn't another person. It was the one and only God manifesting himself in a fleshly body. The Spirit was eternal and couldn't die, but the body was flesh and blood and could die.
That’s plain BS, to say the least! Since when God has to manifest Himself in a fleshy body and He has to die for the sins of mankind?? Where did you get that idea?? From the scriptures ?? I doubt it!! I would say you are just one of those followers who ignore Jesus’ words and just listen and follow blindly what other people said! Did Jesus himself say you must believe in his ‘death’ for your sins to be forgiven ?? If he did, then, quote those Biblical verses where Jesus said or implied he was sent to die for your sin, Surely, that wouldn't be difficult for you.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Read my post again. I think I added to it some while you were responding. Your post doesn't make sense to me - He had to be perfect, to be the perfect sacrifice. Your answer is not scriptural, it's just human thinking and reasoning. Where did you get the idea that he has to be a sinner to take on the sins of the world? It's just the opposite. He had to be the perfect sacrifice.

I reasoned that if he were to take on the sins of the world he had to be human since humans are flesh and sinful according to scripture. If he were god/creator and the creator is without sin, taking on an incarnation doesn't make his nature any different. God's nature contradicts the nature of his incarnation if flesh=sin, so in that respect his son can't be his father.

When you sacrifice something it means you give up something for the well-fare of someone else. If christ were the creator he cannot give himself up because he cannot die. He can only sacrifice himself if he were able to die and since he cannot, I reason that he sent his "son" to do the job for him. Hense why he took on the responsibility I believe as a child or teen and always spoke of his father as a source of his father's (not christ's) edicts and message.

What's happening is when the disciples (and some christians) go to christ they think he is the creator because his father sent him to die for them. Christ says no, I am not the creator because the creator is bigger than I am.

Don't come to me as the creator come to me because I am the mediator between him and man.

The fleshly body the source took on was the mediator.

God loved mankind so much that he took on a fleshly body, lived a perfect life, then sacrificed that fleshly body for our sins, to show us how to live, and prove how much he loved us.

Trinitarians think God is 3 different persons, but he isn't. He was a Spirit that didn't have flesh and blood to sacrifice for our sins. So he made himself a body that could shed blood for our sins. The Spirit was the Father of that body, so he called it his Son. But it wasn't another person. It was the one and only God manifesting himself in a fleshly body. The Spirit was eternal and couldn't die, but the body was flesh and blood and could die.

Since flesh is sin you would be saying god took on sin which makes him a sinner (can't take on sin and be perfect at the same time).

Trinitarians say creator/savior/spirit are one most likely because they cannot see the difference-they are in one accord.

Christ couldn't give up something of value if he were perfect.

Personally, I'd rather christ be sinful insofar that if I were to "die in him" I (my flesh) can relate to him and when he sacrifices himself (per his father's wishes), I am as well.

If christ were perfect I would not be able to identify with him. It wouldn't be a sacrifice. But I know christians believe that he is perfect and a perfect person can sacrifice himself but that's not what sacrifice means. When you die for a person, you actually die-no longer here. If christ is the creator he cannot die so there is no sacrifice.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please note, the thread is mainly about GOD being the ONLY GOD. And that because this ONE GOD is the creator, He us rightly called, ‘FATHER’ (which means: ‘Creator’, ‘Life Giver’, ‘He that brings forth’, and ‘the Head’ by ultimate context.)

How far are you prepared to go in your Biblical debate?

The One God is the bringer of all Faiths.

You can find that One God in many of the global Scriptures.

Regards Tony
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
That’s plain BS, to say the least! Since when God has to manifest Himself in a fleshy body and He has to die for the sins of mankind?? Where did you get that idea?? From the scriptures ?? I doubt it!! I would say you are just one of those followers who ignore Jesus’ words and just listen and follow blindly what other people said! Did Jesus himself say you must believe in his ‘death’ for your sins to be forgiven ?? If he did, then, quote those Biblical verses where Jesus said or implied he was sent to die for your sin, Surely, that wouldn't be difficult for you.

Hi Jerry,

Your sins are forgiven when you are baptized in his name for the forgiveness of those sins. Clearly belief is necessary or you wouldn't obey the instructions given.
Acts 2:38 - He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. Peter taught here that we are to be baptized in the name for the forgiveness of our sins.
Acts 22:16 - be baptized and wash away thy sins. This verse also clearly shows where our sins are forgiven.

As far as him dying for our sins, why Jerry that is a basic fundamental in the scriptures. Here are just a few of the scriptures:
Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Romans 4:24-25 - he was delivered for our offenses. That means he died for us.
Romans 5:8-9 - while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us. ...being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins
Hebrews 9:22 - and without the shedding of blood is no remission
Hebrews 9:28 - So Messiah was once offered to bear the sins of many

And the eternal Spirit of God didn't die, the body God made to dwell in and sacrifice died.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I reasoned that if he were to take on the sins of the world he had to be human since humans are flesh and sinful according to scripture. If he were god/creator and the creator is without sin, taking on an incarnation doesn't make his nature any different. God's nature contradicts the nature of his incarnation if flesh=sin, so in that respect his son can't be his father.

When you sacrifice something it means you give up something for the well-fare of someone else. If christ were the creator he cannot give himself up because he cannot die. He can only sacrifice himself if he were able to die and since he cannot, I reason that he sent his "son" to do the job for him. Hense why he took on the responsibility I believe as a child or teen and always spoke of his father as a source of his father's (not christ's) edicts and message.

What's happening is when the disciples (and some christians) go to christ they think he is the creator because his father sent him to die for them. Christ says no, I am not the creator because the creator is bigger than I am.

Don't come to me as the creator come to me because I am the mediator between him and man.



Since flesh is sin you would be saying god took on sin which makes him a sinner (can't take on sin and be perfect at the same time).

Trinitarians say creator/savior/spirit are one most likely because they cannot see the difference-they are in one accord.

Christ couldn't give up something of value if he were perfect.

Personally, I'd rather christ be sinful insofar that if I were to "die in him" I (my flesh) can relate to him and when he sacrifices himself (per his father's wishes), I am as well.

If christ were perfect I would not be able to identify with him. It wouldn't be a sacrifice. But I know christians believe that he is perfect and a perfect person can sacrifice himself but that's not what sacrifice means. When you die for a person, you actually die-no longer here. If christ is the creator he cannot die so there is no sacrifice.

I can tell you didn't even understand my post. You will have to pray about it and ask God for understanding, if you truly want to understand.

Flesh desires to do things that are sinful, but flesh itself is not sin.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I can tell you didn't even understand my post. You will have to pray about it and ask God for understanding, if you truly want to understand.

Flesh desires to do things that are sinful, but flesh itself is not sin.

This is just a discussion based on what scripture says and I would see it.

This has nothing to do with seeing the "spiritual" message in your post. It's a distraction and fallacy that disagreeing means I don't understand.

It would be better to share different views without needing to agree with each other than excusing the discussion by making it spiritually driven.

Flesh cannot sin yet it can desire to do things that are sinful?

How can something that is not sin desire to do sinful things?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
This is just a discussion based on what scripture says and I would see it.

This has nothing to do with seeing the "spiritual" message in your post. It's a distraction and fallacy that disagreeing means I don't understand.

It would be better to share different views without needing to agree with each other than excusing the discussion by making it spiritually driven.

Flesh cannot sin yet it can desire to do things that are sinful?

How can something that is not sin desire to do sinful things?

I didn't say flesh cannot sin.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
How can flesh not sin but can desire to do things that are sinful?

Wouldn't flesh need to be sin to desire to sin?

By being obedient to God's word, even though you might want to do something that he has said is wrong. That is what is called crucifying your flesh. You are yielding to what God wants you to do, rather than what you want to do in your flesh. But we need the help of God's Spirit to be able to overcome our weaknesses. That is why we have to pray and ask him for help and strength. Romans 8:13

A baby has flesh, but they haven't sinned just because they are born. Sin is breaking a command of God. To sin is to do something he says is wrong.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I totally disagree. We do know that it was an angel, Stephen even says it in Acts 7 when he's in the court system. This is God manifestation. God working through angels or someone else. God would never come down to earth, there is no reason for that at all. He has his angels, prophets, Jesus when he was here to carry out His plans.

Man was made in the image of the Elohim. But was does image and likeness mean? We have a mind that is capable of understanding spiritual things, animals cant do that. Scripture tells us that if we dont use our minds for spiritual things or the things of God we are just like the animals that perish... Christ was in the "image" of his father and ..... the likeness. We also try to manifest God in us too, though we fail, we still try. We want to be like God in a way that we can have a spiritual mind, not a carnal mind. (Romans 8). We know that Jesus is not God, he is the image or manifestation of God. He is everything that God represents. They are insynce together, Christ wants to do his father's will, not his own will.

Certain angels can speak for God as if He was there himself. Certain angels can also forgive sins. (Exodus 23). Apostles could do that to, we read that in Acts. In Psalms it says that the angels do God's work. What work do they do then?......

Above you said God would never come down to earth...

Point #1:
Micah 1:3 - For behold, YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Micah 1:5 ... and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?

Point #2:
Man was made in the image of God. The Messiah was the image of the invisible God. There is a difference in being made in the image and actually being the image.

Point #3:
He definitely was God.
Acts 20:28 - ... feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Isaiah 40:3-9 The voice in the wilderness was to prepare the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Verse 9 - Say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Matthew 3:1-3 John the Baptist was that voice in the wilderness. Question: Who did John prepare the way for? Who showed up?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Zech 14:8,9 says that Yahweh alone is King, just as Isa 44:24 says that Yahweh alone made the heaven and earth.
But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.
Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.

So does that mean you understand there is not a Trinity?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So why does everyone else in the bible says it was an angel.... Why are you saying that it was God himself? Think about what your saying..
Acts 7v30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush."

God does not come down to earth, there is no reason for that. He has his angels that speak for him. No one can see God and live....... And no one has ever seen God.....

Isaiah 6:1-5 ...for mine eyes have seen the King, YHWH of hosts.

Micah 1:3 For behold, YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Question: Who was it that was in the world, and the world was made by him? That came unto his own, and his own received him not?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Jesus did say however that David does call the Messiah Lord at that place. (Matt 22:44)



The scriptures say that God is not a man that he should lie (Number 23:19) That is a comparison of what God is like compared to what we are like, it does not say that God is not a man. Of course we know that God is not a man but that scripture does not say that. Do you say that it is impossible for God to become a man?
What do you say about when Thomas called to risen Jesus "My God"? (John 20:28)

Brian,
God did not become a man. He overshadowed the virgin Mary, and made himself the body of a man to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins. Since he fathered the body, he called it his Son. But it wasn't another person. It was God himself dwelling in the body. Colossians 2:8-9 and 2 Corinthians 5:19
 
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