Yeshua vs the Pharisees (round 2)

[Desert Snake]

How is it speculative when I am providing verse after verse of Yeshua teaching this??

I'm saying that you're drawing a speculative or false conclusion from Jesus's teachings. Just because Jeshua had some problems with the Pharisees and their teachings/methods, doesn't mean that He was stating an 'opposite' viewpoint of written Torah only. The fact that Xians in general never adhered to this belief tells us a lot imo.

 

[LightTraveler]

"You seem like you are speaking for all Jews. I know many Jews who do not keep the "oral laws". Yes, some Jews may be offended by my stance on Talmud, but there are many who agree with me. Essenes of Yeshua's day did not keep the Oral commands and neither did Kariate Jews. Yeshua definitely rejected them while keeping the written Torah. Maybe the true reason for Pharisaic condemnation of Yeshua."

You say all this stuff like you were there. If Jesus were here in the flesh right now typing to you, he would say "I simply don't remember". So then how could YOU possibly know all this?


To "disciple", have you ever considered that the Pharisees were secretly opponents of the Torah, and thus, God Himself? They practiced so many things in secret and violated so many of God's laws (like murder) that it might be possible that they were secretly in league with Satan. The gospels have been written to whitewash them to make them appear less wicked than they were. They were a secret society who at best worshiped earthly riches. Even the gospel says that.

 

[Levite]

have you ever considered that the Pharisees were secretly opponents of the Torah, and thus, God Himself? They practiced so many things in secret and violated so many of God's laws (like murder) that it might be possible that they were secretly in league with Satan.

(Hell of a time for the facepalm symbol to have disappeared....)

That is one of the most painfully ignorant and prejudiced things I have read on this board in some time, and that is really saying something. That is just so unbelievably wrong....

 

[LightTraveler]

But Levite, how do you know? Why are you so quick to defend those who plotted to kill Jesus? Are you in league with Satan also? Incidentally, your avatar picture looks very ominous, as well as your first sentence about it.

I would also advise you to not be so blithe with your use of the word "hell".

 

[Harikrish]

One would find it more logical to say Satan is conspiring against the Jews.The Jews were displaced from their homeland several times, they were persecuted throughout their history by their God, enemies and Europeans and even had their messiah taken away from them and given to the Gentiles who now inherit eternal life.
There are only 14 million Jews compared to 450 million Arabs, 2 billion Christians and 1.4 billion Muslims. The deck is stacked against them.

 

[Levite]

But Levite, how do you know? Why are you so quick to defend those who plotted to kill Jesus? Are you in league with Satan also? Incidentally, your avatar picture looks very ominous, as well as your first sentence about it.

I would also advise you to not be so blithe with your use of the word "hell".

First of all, Jews don't believe in the devil. Or in hell.

Second of all, Pharisees were the earliest Rabbis, not some cabal of conspiracists. They were scholars, jurists, and teachers. They plotted against no one, not even a heretic false messiah like Jesus. And when you denigrate them as evil, murderous plotters, you denigrate all Judaism by association, and you echo classic anti-Semitic canards used to oppress us for centuries.

Third of all, Jesus was killed by the Romans. Pharisees had nothing to do with it, because at that time the true Sanhedrin was not executing people. Which is why Romans had to organize false sanhedrins, made up of corrupted Sadducees and Herodian puppets, in order to pass of any executions as something other than Roman oppression.

How do I know? Because I have multiple degrees in Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature, and have studied both Jewish History and the development of Western religions, and I don't get my information from conspiracy theories and antiquated theological polemics.

 

[LightTraveler]

the fact that the "Christian" church was constructed by Christ's secret enemies pretending to be his followers.
Aaaand the self-righteous bigotry continues...
"Fact?" Really?

You must have a different definition of "bigotry" than I do. I don't see that as bigotry, even if it was wrong. And yeah, it is a fact because Christ never wanted a hierarchical institution inclined to murderous inquisitions erected ostensibly on his behalf.

Well, you're right about the Torah. Sorry about that. It's only the first 5 books of Moses. Ok. Everything else you said is pretty hostile and inflammatory, so it's not really worth bothering to reply to. As the saying goes, we'll just agree to disagree till the Day of Judgement. Then, and only then will you learn the meaning of sanity. I'm not saying I'm perfect. Only God is.

 

[LightTraveler]

Who appointed you to overturn tables in this forum?

Don't you know??? the Illuminati are hoarding it within the super-secret tunnel system that connects all the high-security military installations. It's now in the hands of the aliens who manage the tunnels. Ssshhhhh!!!

Keep up the sarcasm. It's all you got. If you still believe that there's no Satanic conspiracy (call it the "Illuminati" or whatever you want), then you might as well spend all your days watching sports and televised "news". Who appointed me to overturn tables in this forum? I did. Sorry to rock your boat, but sometimes boats need to be rocked. Have you learned nothing in all your years other than how to work a worthless checkbook?

 

[nazz]

Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. 2But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” Luke 6: 1-2


Is Yeshua going against the law of Moses???
Can anyone show me where in the Torah it says we can't pick grain on the Sabbath?

What is melachah? Where is it defined in the Written Torah?

 

[Simplelogic]

First of all, Jews don't believe in the devil. Or in hell.

Second of all, Pharisees were the earliest Rabbis, not some cabal of conspiracists. They were scholars, jurists, and teachers. They plotted against no one, not even a heretic false messiah like Jesus. And when you denigrate them as evil, murderous plotters, you denigrate all Judaism by association, and you echo classic anti-Semitic canards used to oppress us for centuries.

Third of all, Jesus was killed by the Romans. Pharisees had nothing to do with it, because at that time the true Sanhedrin was not executing people. Which is why Romans had to organize false sanhedrins, made up of corrupted Sadducees and Herodian puppets, in order to pass of any executions as something other than Roman oppression.

How do I know? Because I have multiple degrees in Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature, and have studied both Jewish History and the development of Western religions, and I don't get my information from conspiracy theories and antiquated theological polemics.

Well you should know then that the concept of satan is different amongst different Jewish sects. You are one of the many who claims to speak for all Jews.

 

[Simplelogic]

What is melachah? Where is it defined in the Written Torah?

There is NO COMMAND IN THE TORAH NOT TO PICK GRAIN ON SABBATH.

 

[nazz]

There is NO COMMAND IN THE TORAH NOT TO PICK GRAIN ON SABBATH.

So you have no answer to my question?

 

[Simplelogic]

So you have no answer to my question?

I must have misread your post….whats your question?

 

[Simplelogic]

melachah are man made commandments. They try to define work by the different trades which were used to build the Temple.

 

[nazz]

melachah are man made commandments. They try to define work by the different trades which were used to build the Temple.

No. Melachah, translated "work" in English Bibles, is what is forbidden to do on the Sabbath. So I ask again what does melachah mean and where is it defined in the Written Torah? If you can't answer that then you cannot know if picking grain on the Sabbath is forbidden or not.

 

[Simplelogic]

No. Melachah, translated "work" in English Bibles, is what is forbidden to do on the Sabbath. So I ask again what does melachah mean and where is it defined in the Written Torah? If you can't answer that then you cannot know if picking grain on the Sabbath is forbidden or not.

The whole concept is derived from the oral Torah. It has no definition in the written Torah.

 

[sojourner]

I don't see that as bigotry, even if it was wrong.

The State of Alabama didn't think "separate but equal" was bigotry, either. What's your point?

And yeah, it is a fact because Christ never wanted a hierarchical institution inclined to murderous inquisitions erected ostensibly on his behalf.

Just because some dumb-****s got it wrong, doesn't mean they're "enemies." Your statement is nothing more than hyperbole.

Everything else you said is pretty hostile and inflammatory, so it's not really worth bothering to reply to.

Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle...

Then, and only then will you learn the meaning of sanity.

I'm not the one posting diatribes aimed indiscriminately.

Keep up the sarcasm. It's all you got.

It's enough to answer your posts. Anything more would constitute an embarrassing overkill.

If you still believe that there's no Satanic conspiracy (call it the "Illuminati" or whatever you want), then you might as well spend all your days watching sports and televised "news".

Didn't I run into you at the Dulce Conspiracy-Fest? You were in the Aurora Transonic, uber-invisible jet, yes? No! Wait! It was at the Roswell Re-enactment! You played General Ramey!

Who appointed me to overturn tables in this forum? I did.

Custer appointed himself to cleanse the plains of the Lakota, too. Look how that turned out...

Sorry to rock your boat, but sometimes boats need to be rocked.

Emperor Hirohito rocked some boats once... <cough! Hiroshima>

Have you learned nothing in all your years other than how to work a worthless checkbook?

Yeah. Learned how to spot fanatics and people with big chips on their shoulders.

Now that's out of the way... Do you have anything of interest or cogency to add to the thread?

 

[Simplelogic]

The 39 Melachot - Shabbat

 

[sojourner]

The whole concept is derived from the oral Torah. It has no definition in the written Torah.

I simply don't think there's as much separation between the two to real Jews, as you'd like us to think there is.

 

[nazz]

The whole concept is derived from the oral Torah. It has no definition in the written Torah.

Bingo. So without the Oral Torah it is impossible to know what is forbidden and what is not.