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Yeshua vs the Pharisees (round 2)

Levite

Higher and Higher
I know the difference my friend. You are carrying the water for Orthodox dogma. Whether you are Orthodox personally isn't relevant. My case is that Yeshua/Essenes/Ebionites/Kariates and other Jewish sects did not regard oral tradition. Its clever way to claim interpretive authority over the Torah (which Deut 4 says is NOT to difficult for us) and stay in power. You clearly know very little about Kariate Judaism and its origins. Nor are you aware of how many Kariate Jews exist today. Maybe your information is being filtered through Orthodox sources which have a vested interest in minimizing sects which disagree with their traditions?

I am fairly confident I know how many Karaites there are (and how many some Karaites claim there are) and what Karaism's origins are. I am also aware of various different Karaite pseudohistorical accounts of their origins that substitute the actual, sordid details with more high-minded sounding legends of inheriting some mantle of the Tzedokim (Sadducees) and the glories of Torah "literalism;" when in fact, they have their own interpretive techniques and structures of practice which are, in structure, only modestly different than Rabbinic techniques and halachic structures.

I am also fairly aware of where and when my understandings of text and tradition may be Orthodox, and when it simply happens that those understandings share common ground with Orthodoxy because they are normative. You seem to be conflating normativity and Orthodoxy, which is both false and simplistic. The real question, it seems to me, is exactly what you really know about Judaism. Because it doesn't seem like you know much.

In any case, none of that changes the fact that, whatever Jesus' ultimate thoughts about the Oral Torah may have been-- which we are unlikely to discover, and surely cannot conjecture with certainty based on the canon of Christian scriptures, or such "non-canonical gospels" as have yet been found-- he very likely did start off as a Pharisaic student. If he were truly an Essene, he would've been living in one of their ascetic monastic colonies, and been far more interested in strict enforcement of ritual purity and impurity laws than he appears to have been. He was certainly not a Sadducee, since they were largely wealthy and concerned with maintaining control of the corrupted elements of the Temple priesthood. Karaism has nothing to do with Jesus, since it was founded seven hundred-odd years after Jesus died. And Ebionitism also has nothing to do with the historical Jesus, since they were Judaizing Christians of the Second and Third centuries CE.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"modestly different" from Rabbinic oral law??? Check that one again.

Karaism being founded 700 yrs after Yeshua?? Might want to ask a Karaite what they believe their origins are.

"(and how many some Karaites claim there are)" ---Typical dismissive verbiage.

Some Essenes were "ascetic".

John the Baptist was an Essene who practiced the same form of ritual purity. The same practice that Yeshua took part it. Yeshua was VERY strict on the Torah. Just not one the traditions.

No, Yeshua was never a Pharisee. The Talmud stands alone in this claim.

The Ebionites were 1st century according to many "liberal" Bible scholars and historians.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
It should be noted that the only Pharisee who claimed to follow Yeshua was Paul. Even at the end of his career he still claimed the title. He did a bang up job at weaving Greco-Roman philosophy into his concepts just like other Pharisees of the day.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
"modestly different" from Rabbinic oral law??? Check that one again.

Karaism being founded 700 yrs after Yeshua?? Might want to ask a Karaite what they believe their origins are.

"(and how many some Karaites claim there are)" ---Typical dismissive verbiage.

Some Essenes were "ascetic".

John the Baptist was an Essene who practiced the same form of ritual purity. The same practice that Yeshua took part it. Yeshua was VERY strict on the Torah. Just not one the traditions.

No, Yeshua was never a Pharisee. The Talmud stands alone in this claim.

The Ebionites were 1st century according to many "liberal" Bible scholars and historians.

There is little, if any, evidence to support John the Baptist being an Essene. Though you could probably make a better case for him than for Jesus.

As for the rest, your understanding of Karaism is completely ahistorical, and apparently not very in-depth. Have you read any of their books of interpretation? I've read some, and they read extremely similarly to Mishnah, just not as well constructed or redacted or internally consistent and systematic.

You also seem to be taking a lot of fringe theologies and scholarships from both Christianity and Judaism to try and weave together your own peculiar idea of what Jesus was and what he taught. Good luck with that, but I doubt that you'll find many Christians or Jews or academic scholars who take you seriously.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
There is little, if any, evidence to support John the Baptist being an Essene. Though you could probably make a better case for him than for Jesus.

As for the rest, your understanding of Karaism is completely ahistorical, and apparently not very in-depth. Have you read any of their books of interpretation? I've read some, and they read extremely similarly to Mishnah, just not as well constructed or redacted or internally consistent and systematic.

You also seem to be taking a lot of fringe theologies and scholarships from both Christianity and Judaism to try and weave together your own peculiar idea of what Jesus was and what he taught. Good luck with that, but I doubt that you'll find many Christians or Jews or academic scholars who take you seriously.

Regarding Yeshua- Yes, Yeshua was of the same sect as John the Baptist. Actually, the two were even related! Yeshua is of the line of David and Aaron.

Which books did you read on Kariaism?

Sorry, the belief in one Torah is NOT a fringe theory. I am simply reading the gospels in context, without Pauline logic lamented into it.

I could care less if academia listens to me. From either Christianty or Judaism. Christians will reject me simply because I challenge Paul (like Yeshua did). Rabbinic Jews will reject me because I challenge their tradition and claim to Torah interpretation (like Yeshua did). You think I am not aware of this reality?? Its funny you should bring it up, but I actually have a great deal of success with Jews with this type of logic. Maybe its a combination of being burnt out by Rabbinic OCD Talmud observance and a desire to actually HEAR what Yeshua, and the Torah actually said. Not from the standpoint of needing salvation (like Christians teach) but because they want to understand the most famous Jew of all time…and the most controversial.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"modestly different" from Rabbinic oral law??? Check that one again.

Karaism being founded 700 yrs after Yeshua?? Might want to ask a Karaite what they believe their origins are.

"(and how many some Karaites claim there are)" ---Typical dismissive verbiage.

Some Essenes were "ascetic".

John the Baptist was an Essene who practiced the same form of ritual purity. The same practice that Yeshua took part it. Yeshua was VERY strict on the Torah. Just not one the traditions.

No, Yeshua was never a Pharisee. The Talmud stands alone in this claim.

The Ebionites were 1st century according to many "liberal" Bible scholars and historians.
John may have been an Essene, but I doubt it. Too many clues rule against it.
The Talmud does not stand alone in this claim. There is biblical evidence.
According to the sources I know, the Ebionites were later than 1st century.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
John may have been an Essene, but I doubt it. Too many clues rule against it.
The Talmud does not stand alone in this claim. There is biblical evidence.
According to the sources I know, the Ebionites were later than 1st century.
Do you care to present the sources?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I was going to repeat something I've already stated. Fact is, Jeshua's teachings do not indicate complete adherence to Torah laws. It is speculative to state as such.

How is it speculative when I am providing verse after verse of Yeshua teaching this??
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Hmmm. They were Hellenistic, yet they tell us that Yeshua kept the Law of Moses??? Not very hellenistic.

Please then. Present your "credible" accounts of Yeshua which prove me wrong.
 
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