Yeshua vs the Pharisees (round 2)

[Simplelogic]

Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. 2But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” Luke 6: 1-2


Is Yeshua going against the law of Moses???
Can anyone show me where in the Torah it says we can't pick grain on the Sabbath?

 

[outhouse]

“Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”


Was David going against the law of Moses?

 

[Simplelogic]

So you believe David was breaking the law of Moses in this case? Do you want to stick to that one or try to search the Scriptures to see if he actually did?

Your replies are predictable and keeping with mainstream Christian logic outhouse. But like many Christians, you have never investigated the matter. Just assumed that Yeshua was breaking the law of Moses. But I'm not sure why it even matters to you. You don't believe in the Torah anyways!

 

[sojourner]

So you believe David was breaking the law of Moses in this case? Do you want to stick to that one or try to search the Scriptures to see if he actually did?

Your replies are predictable and keeping with mainstream Christian logic outhouse. But like many Christians, you have never investigated the matter. Just assumed that Yeshua was breaking the law of Moses. But I'm not sure why it even matters to you. You don't believe in the Torah anyways!

Mainstream Xy enjoys A. Lot. more credibility in the matter of biblical scholarship than fundamental splinter groups.

 

[outhouse]

So you believe David was breaking the law of Moses in this case?

Moses never existed by all credible historical accounts.


Yes David did, and was used in context to explain why Jesus did not follow one of many sects of Judaism, version of how to follow the laws.

A sect that in itself was divided on how to follow laws.


Of course your showing ignorance to this aspect as well as just about anything not muslim. HHHMmm

 

[Simplelogic]

Mainstream Xy enjoys A. Lot. more credibility in the matter of biblical scholarship than fundamental splinter groups.

BTW. You never showed me where the Torah prohibits picking grain?

 

[Levite]

Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. 2But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” Luke 6: 1-2


Is Yeshua going against the law of Moses???
Can anyone show me where in the Torah it says we can't pick grain on the Sabbath?

Why bother with this? You know that the full laws of what is and is not permissible on the Sabbath are expressed in the Oral Torah. You reject the Oral Torah.

Jesus may or may not have rejected the Oral Torah; if he did not, he may have had arguments to support his behavior that have been lost in the rewriting of his story by non-Jews and apostates. We'll likely never know.

But it proves absolutely nothing about anything when non-Jews cite Christian scripture to try and prove anything about what opinions Jesus might or might not have held as a Jew and leader of a Jewish movement in his time. As far as I can see, it's just one more way to annoy the Jews.

 

[Simplelogic]

Why bother with this? You know that the full laws of what is and is not permissible on the Sabbath are expressed in the Oral Torah. You reject the Oral Torah.

Jesus may or may not have rejected the Oral Torah; if he did not, he may have had arguments to support his behavior that have been lost in the rewriting of his story by non-Jews and apostates. We'll likely never know.

But it proves absolutely nothing about anything when non-Jews cite Christian scripture to try and prove anything about what opinions Jesus might or might not have held as a Jew and leader of a Jewish movement in his time. As far as I can see, it's just one more way to annoy the Jews.

You seem like you are speaking for all Jews. I know many Jews who do not keep the "oral laws". Yes, some Jews may be offended by my stance on Talmud, but there are many who agree with me. Essenes of Yeshua's day did not keep the Oral commands and neither did Kariate Jews. Yeshua definitely rejected them while keeping the written Torah. Maybe the true reason for Pharisaic condemnation of Yeshua.

 

[sojourner]

You seem like you are speaking for all Jews. I know many Jews who do not keep the "oral laws". Yes, some Jews may be offended by my stance on Talmud, but there are many who agree with me. Essenes of Yeshua's day did not keep the Oral commands and neither did Kariate Jews. Yeshua definitely rejected them while keeping the written Torah. Maybe the true reason for Pharisaic condemnation of Yeshua.

Jesus may have been a Pharisee. Some of his disciples were...

 

[Levite]

You seem like you are speaking for all Jews. I know many Jews who do not keep the "oral laws". Yes, some Jews may be offended by my stance on Talmud, but there are many who agree with me. Essenes of Yeshua's day did not keep the Oral commands and neither did Kariate Jews. Yeshua definitely rejected them while keeping the written Torah. Maybe the true reason for Pharisaic condemnation of Yeshua.

There have been no Essenes since around the Second Century CE. Karaites were a heretical sect in the Middle Ages, founded by a disgruntled Rabbinic Jew who broke with tradition in order to secure more power for himself. There are barely a few thousand Karaites left in the world today.

For the past two millennia, Judaism has been Rabbinic Judaism. And that means accepting the Oral Torah.

I sincerely doubt that there are that many Jews to be known who outright reject the Oral Torah. I think most of them, if they don't keep some of the laws taught by the Rabbis, do so out of ignorance rather than theological choice.

For the Rabbis, Jesus was just another out of a large crowd of heretics. He only became a real problem because of his followers, centuries after his death.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Essenes of Yeshua's day did not keep the Oral commands ...

Your evidence?

 

[sojourner]

This should be good...



opcorn:

 

[Simplelogic]

So the burden of proof is on me to prove that other sects of Judaism did not keep the oral commands?? I don't agree. But it is very easy to verify.

Many of Yeshua's followers (if not all) were Essenes/Ebionites. The Ebionites would be considered a subset of the Essene sect of Judaism. The Essenes called themselves the “sons of light” (True Torah observance) also see John 12:36

Ebionites completely rejected the words of Paul and esteemed Yeshua as a fully Torah observant Rabbi who would return as Messiah.

Josephus records that Essenes existed in large numbers and thousands lived throughout Roman Judea. The Essenes recently gained fame in modern times from the discovery of an extensive library of documents known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These documents include preserved multiple copies of the Hebrew Bible untouched from as early as 300 BCE until their discovery in 1947. Also discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls were letters from Yeshua's brother James the Just and head of the Jerusalem church and James rejected Paul of Tarsus as an apostate from the law. James called Paul a “spouter of lies” this from research by Dr. Robert H. Eisenman. Also some Ebionites alleged that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the daughter of a high priest of Israel but apostatized when she rejected him.

 

[outhouse]

Exactly what a muslim would say. muslim POE

There so many errors


Quote mining and perversion of what is known.

Also some Ebionites alleged that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the daughter of a high priest of Israel but apostatized when she rejected him.

Paul was a Hellenist. But this letter was written a few hundred years after Pauls death by people far removed from Paul.

I posted it here last month, and know it well.

No Ebionites can be linked to it.

Many of Yeshua's followers (if not all) were Essenes/Ebionites.

:biglaugh:

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul was a Hellenist. But this letter was written a few hundred years after Pauls death by people far removed from Paul.

I posted it here last month, and know it well.

No Ebionites can be linked to it.
:biglaugh:

Where is your post? I would love to address your claim.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Many of Yeshua's followers (if not all) were Essenes/Ebionites.

Your evidence?

 

[Simplelogic]

Well. Here is renowned professor James Tabor on the subject. I might add that Tabor and I agree on very little.

Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus | TaborBlog

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Tabor? A blog? Seriously? Unless you're running for the position of Poster Child for Confirmation Bias, you really need to do a bit better than this.

 

[sojourner]

Many of Yeshua's followers (if not all) were Essenes/Ebionites.

Most of Jesus' followers would have come from Galilee, since his ministry was concentrated there, until he traveled to Jerusalem. AS I understand it, the Essenes, while all over, were mainly concentrated in Judea, south of Jerusalem.

There's no evidence the the ebionites formed part of the early [edit: Jerusalem] church.

 

[Desert Snake]

Most of Jesus' followers would have come from Galilee, since his ministry was concentrated there, until he traveled to Jerusalem. AS I understand it, the Essenes, while all over, were mainly concentrated in Judea, south of Jerusalem.

There's no evidence the the ebionites formed part of the early church.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm pretty sure as well that 'Nazarene' also had different 'meaning' connotations, and was linked to Essenism somehow. What's funny is that this argument from the OP is actually' off-topic', it doesn't back the argument at all.