Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[Aquitaine]

Sources differ on the exact age of Aisha. If you compare Asma's age (according to ahadith) at the time of Aisha's marriage, it would put her at 17 or 18 years old. The fact is we really don't know how old she was. Ahadith is a source that is often contradictory.

Indeed. That's what amazes me with people who think scripture and literature can be the "divine word of God" - not only is it based on the reader's interpretation, but it's also vulnerable to fabrication, poor translation and contradiction etc.

Anyways, I agree it is true that we will never know Aisha's age at that time. I guess some Muslims believe she was 6-9 (and thus believe child marriage is acceptable) and other Muslims believe that she was in her late teens.

 

[Assad91]

Out of curiosity, since you claim the Sahih Bukhari/Muslim Hadiths are false, what would you say to the many Muslims who believe they're legitimate, and whom believe child marriage is moral because (according to said Hadiths) Mohammad did it?

To wake up like I did.

But then again, I enjoy my head not being cut off

As for your other questions, and the rest of questions, I will not answer till the video I posted is given due attention.

 

[Aquitaine]

Peace
I question to you
Is it moral or immoral to marry a woman 10 years old?
Keep in mind that all Islamic marriages requires the consent of both parties.In other words there is no force on either party.
Peace
Farouk

It is completely immoral to marry a 10 year old. Does that answer your question?

 

[Aquitaine]

To wake up like I did.

But then again, I enjoy my head not being cut off

As for your other questions, and the rest of questions, I will not answer till the video I posted is given due attention.

It's long, but okay then I'll watch it, since I did say I would earlier.

For the record, before I start watching it I just hope it's not another one of those "Oh well unless you can read Arabic then you'll never understand" videos.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Indeed. That's what amazes me with people who think scripture and literature can be the "divine word of God" - not only is it based on the reader's interpretation, but it's also vulnerable to fabrication, poor translation and contradiction etc.

Anyways, I agree it is true that we will never know Aisha's age at that time. I guess some Muslims believe she was 6-9 (and thus believe child marriage is acceptable) and other Muslims believe that she was in her late teens.

Ahadith isn't the word of God. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be the word of God.

 

[Aquitaine]

Ahadith isn't the word of God. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be the word of God.

Substitute "word of God" then with "moral/religious authority". You know what I'm saying; that there are Muslims who defend the hadiths and justify (for example) child marriage, because of said literature's account that Mohammad married a child.

To be fair, the whole thing is bogus (hence why I don't believe in any scripture).

As for your other questions, and the rest of questions, I will not answer till the video I posted is given due attention.

Okay, I've watched it now. Quite frankly, I'm not particularly convinced by the video, which primarily consisted of bashing Aisha as some wicked, disobedient and back-stabbing woman. Again, it's essentially fighting scripture with more scripture.

It is true that none of us will ever know the what really happened, but to be honest I don't think it matters when you still have plenty of Muslims defending child marriage because of their interpretation of certain hadiths, and the belief that it is moral because Mohammad apparently did it.

Obviously, poverty, poor education and development play a crucial role in things like this - as does culture. Still, I don't think it's fair to just rule out religious influence in playing a major role in stuff like this.

 

[FearGod]

thanks for the confirmation.

Confirmation that your logic is a silly one.

And even your comment is a deceptive one.

 

[nash8]

Peace
I married my wife at the age of 10.I don't have any problem in my marriage.I come from a very wealthy family and so does my wife.It seems some members regard my marriage as immoral others regard me as an pedophile.What a sham.How ridiculous can you get?

The problem that I have with this is not the immorality, as I don't believe anything is inherently immoral. A girl might be physically and mentally ready for sex at age 10, but there is no way of knowing.

Marriage, in any culture, was never meant as a choice for man nor woman. It was meant to increase power within families and/or for a man to show that he could "monetarily" provide for another man's daughter. No culture up until modern America, has ever married for "love" with mutual consent. In my opinion, the general American idea of love is corrupted. You are only supposed to love your family and maybe your close friends, and then one "mate" at a time, awfully restricting love in my opinion. So I do not neccesarily have a problem with arranged marriages, even if they are arranged at a young age. Ghandi was part of an arranged marriage, and him and his wife turned out pretty good in my opinion. The problem that I have is the consumation of the marriage at that age.

The problem I have with this is that there is no way of knowing that if a 10 year old girl is physically ready for interaction with a man that comes with marriage. The reason why 18 is a good age, is because if a woman is not physically mature by that age then something is wrong, and she probably needs medical attention. Sure there might be some 10 year olds that are physically ready, but it is not very likely from a scientific/medical point of view. From the mental standpoint, the majority of men and women in the world are not mentally compenent enough to become married, there is no good "specific" age where a person can logically consent to something. There are 8 year olds that are more mentally competent to get married then 48 year olds.

And yes you are a pedophile.
Pedophile - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The difficulty in answering my question makes it quite obvious that your agenda is nothing but throwing stones.

Lol, the difficulty in answering your questions was because you posted at 530 in the morning.

If you born inside your tunnel vision then its about time that you learn to respect others that are in their own tunnel.

How bout we both get out of our tunnels?

My marriage to my wife is very successful and so is all my children.The divorce rate in my family is zero and there is no ways that i am going to change my way of life to another way of life that will never understand the meaning of the word morality.
Now stop your barbaric attacks on my marriage.
Peace
Farouk

What are your own personal factors of success? What is the meaning of morality to you?

Peace
Yes.My wife did not die because i was a man who understood how to handle a woman.

How did you know she was a woman and not still a girl?

Peace
I have 14 children and they all are happily married at an early age.Give me a good reason why a divorce rate should not be used as an evidence of success?
Note that is why i mentioned that if you are living in your tunnell vision then respect others that live inside theirs.
Peace
Farouk

Do you follow Sharia law, if so, can you cite some Quran verses that support it. If a woman who gets divorced is shunned by her community or killed if she gets a divorce, then their is very little evidence of "happiness" with divorce rate.

And I have very little respect for anyone who lives in a tunnel. No matter what type of tunnel it is.

Peace
Lets put things in clear perpective so you don't have any misunderstanding.
In Islam there is no such a thing as moderates,conservatives,fundamentalist or whatever

Lol, maybe from your tunnel, but I don't live in a tunnel, nor many Muslims that I speak with regularly. Do you speak for all Muslims?

Don't read too much Western propaganda its just not good for the brain.

I actually agree with something you said.

Read between the lines and you will get the true facts.In Islam a cartoon of any Prophet,be it Muhammad,Moses or Jesus(peace and blessings be upon them all),is an attack on my religion.

From your perspective, I have spoken with many Muslims that could care less.

If any one attacks then they must expect an emotional response.Now who do you blame.the religion of Islam or the instigators.

If you respond to a non-violent "attack" with a violent one. I blame you personally, not the religion of Islam nor the instigators.

So far as your pedophilia and ignorance of ridiculous traditions comment goes its all inside your tunnell of vision.We in Islam have our own way of life inside our own tunnell vision and we will definately not change it for your immoral and barbaric tunnell of vision.

Sorry, but you are a pedophile. Not all Muslims marry children, so quit using your religion as an exuse for doing so. If you feel that it is right to marry a child of 10 years old than say that "YOU" personally think it is right, don't say you do something because your religion says so, because it doesn't, and even if it did you would not follow that religion if you personally thought it was wrong would you? You don't follow another religion because you think they are wrong no? [/quote]

Peace
So far as your comments on your body goes i want you understand that no 2 woman are the same.Each human body reacts differently.

Indeed, so shouldn't you pick an age where all women will react the same unless there is a rare case where something is medically wrong? How do you decide if a woman will react positively to you?

So if you had an unusual experience then that does not mean my wife had to go through the same.Note at 20 i was a man and not a boy and God gave me the wisdom on how to handle a woman of 10 and that is the difference between a man and an animal.

I guess that answers my question. So the difference between man and animal is God's gift of wisdom on how to handle a ten year old girl. Wow, your are not making my job of defending the religion of Islam very easy are you? You may make me change my entire view of inherent morality. Wow... I am literally speechless at this comment.

 

[nash8]

Your perspective of the event is utterly irrelevant.
It is your wife's perspective that matters.

Regarding your question, there isn't any set age that a male or female is ready to marry. It depends on whether the person is able to give his/her ( informed ) consent.

Lol, I would argue that very few in any culture can give their (informed) consent to be married. Otherwise there probably wouldn't be a 50% divorce rate in America.

This "would" be a good point, except when you compare Islam to other religions. Christianity is the closest in our documented history to come to the atrocious levels of violence that is perpetuated by Islam.

The point is not the atrocities that have been comitted in the name of the religion. You can't hold the religion responsible for the acts of men. Religion kills noone, religion commits no atrocities, religions commits no actions. I could take a verse out of any religious text you wan't to pick, and say that it justifies any immoral action I choose. Did you know Jesus was also a pedophile?

Matthew 19:14 NIV - Jesus said,

The true measure of how destructive a religion can be is a level that is set by it's extremists.

Why is it that you get to decide the true measure of how destructive a religion is? Why don't I get to decide the true measure of how destructive a religion is?

A fundamentalist Jane wears a veil over their mouths to prevent from killing a bug accidentally. Fundamentalist Christians have recently killed abortion clinic doctors, black people and homosexuals based on their scripture. In the past they started wars and burned people alive. Now, there are certainly many many cases of sexual abuse being performed by people of the Christian faith, but I have never EVER heard one line of scripture being used to back it up... Those are cases of pedophiles who happen to be Christian.

There is no scripture that I have seen that backs up pedophilia in the Quran. The only thing that I have seen are Hadiths, which are basically commentarys by religious leaders after the fact. Whose to say those that wrote the Hadith's that said Aishia was six, weren't pedophiles themselves, and were looking for a way to justify their own perversions through a religious justification, while the religious text of the religion say nothing of the sort. And it is Jain, not Jane, that's the chick in Tarzan.

Can you cite Bible quotes, where it says to kill black people, homosexuals, and abortion clinic doctors?

And that "would" apply to Islam, except they actually have scripture to defend their act of pedophilia. They kill people and burn down buildings because of a cartoon. The decapitate children. They stone women to death for any act that she might find her own pleasure, but allow men to get a two hour marriage so they can have sex with a slave prostitute.

I have asked numerous times for someone to cite the specific scripture where the Quran promotes pedophilia, and Hadith's aren't scripture, sorry. Again, you are blaming the acts of men, on a religion. And please cite scripture were the Quran tells people to burn down buildings and kill people because of a cartoon, and where it says to decapitate children, and where it says to stone women (which the OT says quite often, but you don't see Jews going around stoning women because it is in their scripture).

Islam is by far the worst form of religion to have ever shown is ugly face (edited) in recent history.

I have seen a lot of ignorant statements on this forum, but this is by far and away the most ignorant one I have seen to date.

If we read about these things as having happened 2,000, 1,000, or even 500 years ago, we could chock it up to ignorance of ridiculous traditions... But these things happen NOW, TODAY... and in countries that have already been through an industrial age and have even embraced the information age... There is NO justification for this type of barbaric social construct.

Yet again, show me the scripture, and I might give some credit to your opinion, but as of now you are just appealing to ignorance. You do realize that America and Brittain basically caused Iran to revert back from it's industrial age by replacing the first democratically elected president of Iran, and reinstating a religious fundamental, highly oppressive leader right?

1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no "physical" age... It is a measure of mental development when the individual can make a choice for herself, and enter into the marriage as a consenting ADULT. In this day and age there is no excuse at all for any society to hold on to such ridiculous dogma as forced marriage (you can call it arranged if you want, I call it forced). And if you cannot see how this kind of practice leads to social degradation and prevents progress then you are the one who is blind.

What age can a person make a choice for themselves? When are they not making choices that are not their own? I would argue that if making a choice for yourself is the determining factor in marriage, then very few people should be allowed to get married, especially in America. Jewish boys are considered adults at age 13 I believe, are they adults, or does an adult mean your are only 18 years of age?

I'm sure many people will have lots of problems with my posts on this topic... claiming I need to give respect to people's beliefs, and that it's not the religion, it's the individual... NO, when the religion supports the evil deed... it is most definitely the religion that is at fault.

Lol, yet again cite where the Quran supports these evil deeds unquestionably. Are violent video games responsible for kids shooting up schools? Or are non-religious texts that support killing another to blame for that person actually killing someone, or is it only religious texts that are at fault?

and Islam supports viloence... I don't care how many "good" people there are who are Muslim, they are not the measure of how disgusting the religion really is... it is those who can use the words to commit violent acts who are the measure of how evil a religion can be at it's core.

I support violence in some situations, am I "disguisting"? How can one use words to commit violent acts? Last I knew it required, physical force to commit a violent act.

#1. Don't give me this crap that it was not "violence", but an "act of love"... When you are using your penis to tear the flesh of any female as she is, screaming, cringing, crying, writhing in pain ...

Can you quote a Quran verse that promotes this?

#2. Forget the apologetic, I've read it... "Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) did not marry Ayesha when she was only 6 years old. Her parents offered marriage as was customary in their culture at the time. However, the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) did not accept this and they waited a number of years before offering marriage to him again."

This is not scripture, this is what someone wrote way after the fact about the situation. Then again what if marriage didn't mean what it meant today. What if Ayesha's parents offered her to Mohommed as a means to provide her a better life because they were extremely poor, and she most likely would have died if she stayed with them? What if Ayesha was a genius, and helped Mohammed become a better person? What if Ayesha and Mohommed did not consumate their marriage until Ayesha felt as if though she was ready? What if the Hadiths are crap?

Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you have to look at it from a life expectancy rate. At that time, 9 years old was most likely a quarter of your life from most estimates. It would be akin to getting married at 18-20 in the U.S. today.

What number of years?? 2, 3, 4 ... At what age is it "ok" to force yourself onto a female??

Can you cite some scripture where it says it's "ok" to force yourself on a female. Again Hadiths don't count, their not scripture. Many argue that Islam made life better for women in Arabia. And on that note, Sharia law did not come in until much later, and is more reminiscent of pre-Islam Arabia and is supported more by the outlying tribal leaders who adhere to a form of Islam that is more akin to Pre-Islamic Arabian cultural laws. And if you disagree please cite some scripture where Sharia law is supported by the Quran?

 

[nash8]

i dont know whatelse would it require to blame a religion if it commands its followers do that, and also its followers obeys/obeyed that.

The people that obey maybe? Yet again, post some scriptural verses.

thanks for the link, but you totally misunderstood my post, i said that in reference to the video i posted, it says out of 4995 child marriages, 4249 is from muslim communities and 394 from hindu backward castes and others is 312, why there is such huge margin? that was my question actually.

And my answer to your question was that your youtube video was B.S. Does it say anything about the relative poverty level of Islam vs. Hindu castes. Or does it state the comparison of populations between the two. If there are 20 million Muslims, and 1 million hindu backwards castes, it kinda skews the results no?

already answered this, their prophet practised it, and he was the perfect human to ever exist according to them, this is one such justification they provide, and i dont know how that justification is wrong.

You, no noone living today, have any idea what the Prophet practised.

i got that idea from muslims itselves, i hate quoting from the scriptures, so i am posting an another website link where you can find the quotes you looking for, also it seems like the muslim members in there pretty much agree with those quotes.
Here is the link - Did prophet Muhammad marry a 6 year old?

Lol you hate quoting scripture that actually support your opinion, but you have no problem citing websites where other people state opinions that agree with your opinion. All of those "verses of scripture" are called Hadiths, and they are written by religious leaders after the Mohammeds life, saying their "opinions" on Mohammed's life. They are not religous scripture.

i dont remember me saying that..

You said that Islamic scripture promotes pedophilia, it does not until you can cite a verse in the Quran that inexplicably says so.

so there are muslims who dont admire muhammad?

na, i never said that. I said, child-marriage is 100% compatible with islam, please look back my post.

Again, cite some scripture where it says so. Hadiths don't count because they are not scripture, and stating that child marriage happened during that time the Quran was written is not acceptable either. I could use the same argument to say that every religion in the world supports child marriage.

In this case, much of it is justified even though it is aimed at cultural practices more so then religion.

I'll give you cultural practices all day long, but religion not in a million years. Especially considering that nowhere in the Quran does it support child marriage, and especially not pedophilia.

What happened here was dead wrong and there are no excuses, no one should bring excuses to the table.

As much is I detest inherent morality in anyway. I have to agree with you, but at the same time there is no way you can blame the religion.

What should be debated is how to not let this ever happen again.

No amount of debate in the world would ever solve this problem, only action.

Is this wrong?

Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aisha was five or six years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[12][16][17] Traditional sources state that she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina

Look at your citations, all of them are based on Hadiths. I guess Jesus walked on water, raised the dead, and "rose again" because church fathers said he did?

Child marriage is also very prevalent in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (majority Christian), Zambia (majority Christian), Uganda (majority Christian), Cambodia (majority Buddhist), Panama (majority Christian), Madagascar and (majority traditional religion and Christian). I could name more countries, but I won't. How is child marriage a uniquely Muslim practice when it is also practiced by countries that are not Muslim? Did Muslims somehow cause Central and Latin Americans to practice child marriage?

Exactly.

 

[nash8]

But it IS a problem in many Muslim cultures (most of these particular ones are in poor countries)

Look at the correlation between poor "Muslim" countries and the poor "other' countries listed in the above quote by cuppycakkee, and just about any other country where child marriage occurs. I can almost gaurantee you that it is poor, and not Muslim.

and there is significant evidence to suggest that if so interpreted, there is (at the absolute least) condoning of such practices through theological claims.

If so interpreted??? You can interpret anything in anyway you wan't and if you hold enough power within the community, it will be condoned. Jesus said "let the children come to me" because he wanted to have sex with them, so the Bible condones pedophilia due to an interpretation. That's essentially what your saying, and it's even worse because that quote is actually in the Bible, and not what somebody said about the events in it.

Theological factors are FAR from the only ones, however there are indeed religious factors that exacerbate a problem that does exist (regardless of where such a practice originated, as to be honest, I really don't care if it was Islam which started it - in fact I doubt it was in many locations). And the overwhelming majority of studies ever performed on the subject indicate that there are certain approaches to fixing such problems - (chiefly the empowerment of women, providing them with an education and control over their own lives) which vastly improve the conditions of those societies (as well as the women's own lives) - and this is something which most Islamic societies have actively taken measures to curtail.

There are actually who argue that Islam contributed to the rights of Women rather than took away from them. They argue that the culture of Pre-Islamic Arabia was getting pretty brutal towards women, and Islam actually game them more of a semblance of respect. It wasn't until the enforcement of Sharia law, which is far as I can tell isn't even in the Quran, and was most likely instituted by pressure from tribal leaders who aren't even really Muslims, and adher more to pre-Islamic cultural practices then anything else.

Indeed. That's what amazes me with people who think scripture and literature can be the "divine word of God" - not only is it based on the reader's interpretation, but it's also vulnerable to fabrication, poor translation and contradiction etc.

Exactly.

Anyways, I agree it is true that we will never know Aisha's age at that time. I guess some Muslims believe she was 6-9 (and thus believe child marriage is acceptable) and other Muslims believe that she was in her late teens.

And you can't even be sure of that, and even in that regard, a teen was capable to be married in America less than 100 years ago.

Substitute "word of God" then with "moral/religious authority". You know what I'm saying; that there are Muslims who defend the hadiths and justify (for example) child marriage, because of said literature's account that Mohammad married a child.

To be fair, the whole thing is bogus (hence why I don't believe in any scripture).

Exactly.

It is true that none of us will ever know the what really happened, but to be honest I don't think it matters when you still have plenty of Muslims defending child marriage because of their interpretation of certain hadiths, and the belief that it is moral because Mohammad apparently did it.

Obviously, poverty, poor education and development play a crucial role in things like this - as does culture. Still, I don't think it's fair to just rule out religious influence in playing a major role in stuff like this.

Religious influence no doubt plays a role in this typs of stuff, but when the actual holy book says nothing of the sort, and the only justifcation for this "religiously" is what some guy wrote after the fact, and outside of the holy text. How can you say it's the religion? If there was a verse in the Quran that said child marriage is ok, then I would be more likely to lean toward this opinion, but as of yet not one person has sited a verse in the Quran.

 

[nash8]

But then why are some Muslims advocating marriage to a 9 year old? Also, how exactly does a Muslim deem (from an Islamic perspective) whether a 9 year old is "mature" enough for sex and marriage?

Because they were going to be pedophiles regardless of what culture/religion they were? And the "religious authorities" simply use religion to support their own perverted ways? If you switch Christianity with Islam could you see the same thing happening?
What the Bible says about pedophilia

Out of curiosity, since you claim the Sahih Bukhari/Muslim Hadiths are false, what would you say to the many Muslims who believe they're legitimate, and whom believe child marriage is moral because (according to said Hadiths) Mohammad did it?

I would tell them to refer to the Quran, and to disregard the writings of men concerning the life of the Prophet.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Look at the correlation between poor "Muslim" countries and the poor "other' countries listed in the above quote by cuppycakkee, and just about any other country where child marriage occurs. I can almost gaurantee you that it is poor, and not Muslim.

I said that right at the start; however as I ALSO said, the problem is then exacerbated if supplied with a theological argument which condones (not promotes in my view except if further distorted). Especially when active efforts are undertaken (and theologically underscored) which seeks to ensure attempts to address the situation in such a way as to make such abuses (and yes it is abuse) less prevalent - such as educating women, giving them the unconstrained authority over their own personage and decisions unprompted and unshaped by pressure - and this is something that Islam actively opposes in many such locations (indeed in MOST).

If so interpreted??? You can interpret anything in anyway you wan't and if you hold enough power within the community, it will be condoned. Jesus said "let the children come to me" because he wanted to have sex with them, so the Bible condones pedophilia due to an interpretation. That's essentially what your saying, and it's even worse because that quote is actually in the Bible, and not what somebody said about the events in it.

I agree, interpretation is a very powerful thin g and can be used to interpret the same passage to mean directly opposite things. However, there is extremely little interpretation required to recognize that if one does believe (and not all do - no one has said as much - you have chosen to interpret posts here in such a way, but that is not reflective of reality) that Muhammed married a child - then it is completely rational to believe that it is okay to marry a child who is incapable of informed consent, who could not reasonably be expected to understand the legal responsibilities of signing up for a telephone plan let alone a binding civil and religious union in which she is subordinate to her husband and from which she will have extremely difficult a time to extract herself should the implementation of such a contract not be satisfactory.

There are actually who argue that Islam contributed to the rights of Women rather than took away from them. They argue that the culture of Pre-Islamic Arabia was getting pretty brutal towards women, and Islam actually game them more of a semblance of respect. It wasn't until the enforcement of Sharia law, which is far as I can tell isn't even in the Quran, and was most likely instituted by pressure from tribal leaders who aren't even really Muslims, and adher more to pre-Islamic cultural practices then anything else.

I was not not talking about some isolated case of keeping a child uneducated for the sakes of sating the lust of some old pervert. I was talking about a general attitude towards educating women and indeed keeping them subordinate to men.

That cultures thousands of years ago wer eeven more backward and disgustingly sexist, I have no doubt. But by contemporary standards in relation to their treatment of women, Islam has a little catching up to do. And that is ignoring the whole face covering situation which I personally do not see a major issue with (if they so desire it) - however to deprive them of the capacity to be informed and to establish informed consent, which are directly related to their education opportunities and their right to self governance is to undermine their most fundamental human rights.

 

[nash8]

I said that right at the start; however as I ALSO said, the problem is then exacerbated if supplied with a theological argument which condones (not promotes in my view except if further distorted).

I agree. The problem that I have is not that theological arguments influence people, I totally believe it does, but rather in other regards.

1. When you place the theological argument above peoples actions, you are taking the responsibility away from the person in my opinion.

2. I have yet to see where the QURAN condones anything with regard to this topic. I have seen Hadiths condone this, but this is not the Holy book of the religion, and is accepted as the words of a man, and not the words of God, therefore since the condonement comes from the word of man, and not "the word of God", how can you cite the religion being to blame?

3. The Bible is easily to be interpreted to condone pedophilia, do you also believe that Christianity condones and/or supports pedophilia?

Especially when active efforts are undertaken (and theologically underscored) which seeks to ensure attempts to address the situation in such a way as to make such abuses (and yes it is abuse) less prevalent - such as educating women, giving them the unconstrained authority over their own personage and decisions unprompted and unshaped by pressure - and this is something that Islam actively opposes in many such locations (indeed in MOST).

Yet again, can you cite the Quran where Islam opposes women's rights? Then again, the Bible has many verses that oppose women's rights, does that mean Christianity condones oppression of women?

Finally, Sharia law, which is where most of the treatment of women and child abuse comes from, is not inherently Muslim. There is no reference to Sharia law in the Quran, and from my personal opinion it is enforced due to pressure from tribal leaders who hold much power, and adhere to a form of Islam that is more akin to pre-islam arabia. How can a woman not being allowed to drive a car be found in the Quran?

SHARIA LAW - Islamic Sharia Law Explained

Upon further inspection, I would say that the religion of Sharia is to blame rather than Islam.
The Koran vs. Sharia at a glance

The closest verse I have found to anything like this is Surah 4: 34-35, where it says a man who finds his wife to be rebellious may hit her as a last resort. However, the meaning of the word used can be translated many different ways, and only after a Hadith decided it meant that a man could beat his wife did it become that way.
Surah 4 : 34-35

Look at the section on adribu for a specific reference.

I agree, interpretation is a very powerful thin g and can be used to interpret the same passage to mean directly opposite things. However, there is extremely little interpretation required to recognize that if one does believe (and not all do - no one has said as much - you have chosen to interpret posts here in such a way, but that is not reflective of reality) that Muhammed married a child - then it is completely rational to believe that it is okay to marry a child who is incapable of informed consent, who could not reasonably be expected to understand the legal responsibilities of signing up for a telephone plan let alone a binding civil and religious union in which she is subordinate to her husband and from which she will have extremely difficult a time to extract herself should the implementation of such a contract not be satisfactory.

Again is this from Islam or from people using an established religion to conture society to the way they wan't it to be? Do you place blame on the religion, of which the holy book really says nothing that supports these actions, or do you place blame on the people that choose to interpret the ambiguous statements as a reason for their immoral actions?

I was not not talking about some isolated case of keeping a child uneducated for the sakes of sating the lust of some old pervert. I was talking about a general attitude towards educating women and indeed keeping them subordinate to men.

Sharia vs. Islam, Islam is based on the Quran, which is God's word according to Muslims. Sharia is man's words very loosely interpreted from God's words.

That cultures thousands of years ago wer eeven more backward and disgustingly sexist, I have no doubt. But by contemporary standards in relation to their treatment of women, Islam has a little catching up to do.

In my opinion it is not Islam that has the catching up to do, but rather the people that inhabit countries that are generally associated with religion of Islam.

According to your logic, I could say the reason that America has better treatment of women is because they are Christian, and it has nothing to do with low level of poverty and the high level of education within America. And even with that, women only got "equal" rights with men less than 100 years ago.

And that is ignoring the whole face covering situation which I personally do not see a major issue with (if they so desire it) - however to deprive them of the capacity to be informed and to establish informed consent, which are directly related to their education opportunities and their right to self governance is to undermine their most fundamental human rights.

Ghandi and his wife had an arranged marriage where neither one of them had any say in the situation, and him and his wife turned out ok in my opinion.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

1. I dont. I consider both extremely problematic and only part of the problem. The man is a pedophile, the family who has done this to their child is at the least neglectful if not abusive, the culture (whether religious or not) that facilitates it is dysfunctional and that either the legislative systems, the enforcement systems or the judicial systems of the nations involved are a disgrace.

2. I dont. I have stated time and again it is the religiously influences cultures, that it is the religious community that it is the way that certain religious interpretations have been implemented. But absolutely there is an extremely valid religious component which does not merely fail to prevent this problem, it actually makes it worse.

3. Before I answer this, note I am not a christian. I read the link you posted earlier... which has nothing about the age or development of those in question only that they had not lain with a man. That is VERY different from the example of a child bride (if you so believe her to be) taken by the prophet Muhammad, very very different. Nor does it mention anything about sex with those female 'little ones', it is certainly not implied as overtly as it is in those phrases with regards to the adult female virgins (where it is not in the slightest ambiguous), there are certainly overtones though and were any christian community to do this I would hold that religious philosophy (not the entire religion itself - which you seem to be conflating) to be partially culpable.




I am more than willing to discuss women's supposed protections and equality in islam with you, the direction you seem to be desiring to discuss however does not seem to be relevant to the OP.

Perhaps you are a Quran only Muslim, some are, however that is very very different than suggesting that the Quran is the only source of lore; even if not considered infallible in the same way as the Quran they are most certainly considered a valid source of comprehension about what it means to be a 'good muslim' it is essential in the discussion of morality and ethical codes of behaviour for a very significant portion of the Islamic community.

Thus comments about how this might have negative implications in terms of potential views about the duty of a child to their parents in accepting their wishes, the acceptance of pedophillia, the rightful place of women as subordinate to men, these are relevant to this discussion even if you disagree with those particular hadith or even the idea of using hadith in the first place.




Sharia is not a religion though you might be reluctant to accept it or might deem it illegitimate, it is one of the many codifications of religious philosophy within the Islamic community (which is far from heterogeneous I know - far from uniform, there are differences and divisions - it still remains a part of the Islamic religious community and the cultural communities so influenced).

And yes, I do blame the religious community for that - though far from equally, some parts (those who practice such vileness) I blame far more heavily, yet those who tolerate it, who do not seek to alleviate the conditions which facilitate or cause such marriages? Yes I blame them too. Not as much as those pedophiles of course, nor their local religious community but that they stood by and allowing some more poor muslim girl (not woman) to be raped by some grubby old man using Islam as their excuse, their justification (not their reason).

And my question is why did they not do something about it?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Peace
Note there was no intention of ignoring your reply but i did mention that no intellectual person answered my question and you included.
So far as your comments on your body goes i want you understand that no 2 woman are the same.Each human body reacts differently.So if you had an unusual experience then that does not mean my wife had to go through the same.Note at 20 i was a man and not a boy and God gave me the wisdom on how to handle a woman of 10 and that is the difference between a man and an animal.Note you have a right to express your opinion but that does not give you the right in stopping a 10 year old woman marrying a man of her choice.
Peace
Farouk

10 year old woman....oy. This is a first. Please look at this:

Adolescent Women and Their Infants: at Risk for Injury, Illness, and Death
- Adolescents age 15 through 19 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy or child birth as those over age 20; girls under age 15 are five times more likely to die.
- Each year, at least two million young women in developing countries undergo unsafe abortion. Unsafe abortion can have devastating consequences, including cervical tearing, perforated uterus, hemorrhage, chronic pelvic infection, infertility, and death.
- In Nigeria, complications of abortion account for 72 percent of all deaths in young women under age 19; moreover, half (50 percent) of all maternal deaths result from illegal abortion among Nigerian adolescents.
- Infants of adolescents are at increased risk for death. In fact, the infants of adolescent mothers are more likely to die before their first birthday than are the infants of older mothers.
- Complications during childbirth account for almost 25 percent of newborn deaths. Preterm delivery and low birth weight are other reasons for deaths among infants born to adolescent mothers.


Why Girls Are More Vulnerable than Older Women
- Many biological, economic, and cultural factors—such as poverty, malnutrition, immature reproductive tract, child marriage, and gender inequities may compromise the health of a pregnant adolescent
- Child marriage is one of the cultural factors that work against adolescent women. Married women under age 18 report being less able than older married women to discuss contraceptive use with their husband. Thus child marriage is also associated with early childbearing. In Chad, Guinea, Mali, and Niger—where child marriage is prevalent—half of all teen women give birth before age 18.
- Child marriage also puts young women at greater risk of HIV. Results from a study in Kenya and Zambia showed that married 16- to 19-year-old females were 75 percent more likely to have HIV than their sexually active unmarried peers.
- Gender inequities put girls at greater risk than boys and affect many aspects of young women’s lives including reduced opportunities for education, employment, and control over their own reproductive health. Lack of education can also affect health when it limits young women’s knowledge about nutrition, birth spacing, and contraception.

Source: Adolescent Maternal Mortality: An Overlooked Crisis

A girl at 10 years old is much less capable of negotiating child spacing, family planning, contraceptive use, and knowing of access and use of prenatal care than an older educated woman who has a more developed reproductive system and experience with gynecological health professionals.

You may personally think your tradition and your marriage are examples of what is ideal. Unfortunately the newborns and the young child-bearing females in your reasoning do not fare as well according to the statistics. Not if they are placed at risk for health complications or death due to cultural pressure to conform.

I urge you to reconsider your position on the matter.

 

[Pastek]

And yes, I do blame the religious community for that - though far from equally, some parts (those who practice such vileness) I blame far more heavily, yet those who tolerate it, who do not seek to alleviate the conditions which facilitate or cause such marriages? Yes I blame them too. Not as much as those pedophiles of course, nor their local religious community but that they stood by and allowing some more poor muslim girl (not woman) to be raped by some grubby old man using Islam as their excuse, their justification (not their reason).

And my question is why did they not do something about it?

I think politics don't want to have problems with some religious.
In some countries they have a lot of power. Of course there's many associations who try to help the children and women but it seems to not change a lot.

Note that in Yemen they are tribes, and the country is not stable and not united.
The tribes have their own laws, they don't really care about the governement.

 

[Looncall]

I agree. The problem that I have is not that theological arguments influence people, I totally believe it does, but rather in other regards.

1. When you place the theological argument above peoples actions, you are taking the responsibility away from the person in my opinion.

2. I have yet to see where the QURAN condones anything with regard to this topic. I have seen Hadiths condone this, but this is not the Holy book of the religion, and is accepted as the words of a man, and not the words of God, therefore since the condonement comes from the word of man, and not "the word of God", how can you cite the religion being to blame?

3. The Bible is easily to be interpreted to condone pedophilia, do you also believe that Christianity condones and/or supports pedophilia?





Yet again, can you cite the Quran where Islam opposes women's rights? Then again, the Bible has many verses that oppose women's rights, does that mean Christianity condones oppression of women?

Finally, Sharia law, which is where most of the treatment of women and child abuse comes from, is not inherently Muslim. There is no reference to Sharia law in the Quran, and from my personal opinion it is enforced due to pressure from tribal leaders who hold much power, and adhere to a form of Islam that is more akin to pre-islam arabia. How can a woman not being allowed to drive a car be found in the Quran?

SHARIA LAW - Islamic Sharia Law Explained

Upon further inspection, I would say that the religion of Sharia is to blame rather than Islam.
The Koran vs. Sharia at a glance

The closest verse I have found to anything like this is Surah 4: 34-35, where it says a man who finds his wife to be rebellious may hit her as a last resort. However, the meaning of the word used can be translated many different ways, and only after a Hadith decided it meant that a man could beat his wife did it become that way.
Surah 4 : 34-35

Look at the section on adribu for a specific reference.




Again is this from Islam or from people using an established religion to conture society to the way they wan't it to be? Do you place blame on the religion, of which the holy book really says nothing that supports these actions, or do you place blame on the people that choose to interpret the ambiguous statements as a reason for their immoral actions?



Sharia vs. Islam, Islam is based on the Quran, which is God's word according to Muslims. Sharia is man's words very loosely interpreted from God's words.



In my opinion it is not Islam that has the catching up to do, but rather the people that inhabit countries that are generally associated with religion of Islam.

According to your logic, I could say the reason that America has better treatment of women is because they are Christian, and it has nothing to do with low level of poverty and the high level of education within America. And even with that, women only got "equal" rights with men less than 100 years ago.



Ghandi and his wife had an arranged marriage where neither one of them had any say in the situation, and him and his wife turned out ok in my opinion.

If people who are devout carry out heinous acts, one can at least say that their religion is ineffective in preventing those acts.

If the laws of societies dominated by a particular religion pretty much invariably disregard human rights (eg through blasphemy laws, torture etc), even though the underlying cultures differ (eg Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Somalia etc), why shouldn't one ascribe that to the religion?

It is what people do that counts. Not what is written in their so-called holy books.

 

[FearGod]

If people who are devout carry out heinous acts, one can at least say that their religion is ineffective in preventing those acts.

If the laws of societies dominated by a particular religion pretty much invariably disregard human rights (eg through blasphemy laws, torture etc), even though the underlying cultures differ (eg Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Somalia etc), why shouldn't one ascribe that to the religion?

It is what people do that counts. Not what is written in their so-called holy books.

it is like saying if there is crimes and rapists then we have to blame the law.

The same thing that we blame religion for terrorist attacks which actually is forbidden in Islam to kill any innocent person and wars only should be against
oppressors and for defending puroposes.

IMHO it is sort of crap to blame religion for all awful things happeneing in this world.

 

[Looncall]

it is like saying if there is crimes and rapists then we have to blame the law.

The same thing that we blame religion for terrorist attacks which actually is forbidden in Islam to kill any innocent person and wars only should be against
oppressors and for defending puroposes.

IMHO it is sort of crap to blame religion for all awful things happeneing in this world.

On an individual basis I mainly agree with you.

However, on an institutional basis I vehemently disagree. If muslim-dominated societies display certain behaviours, condoned by the state, (eg torture), but these behaviours are rare and considered reprehensible in many non-muslim ones, what is one to make of the difference?

If knowing that a society is muslim-dominated leads to successful prediction that murderous religious intolerance, mysogyny, corruption, torture etc are common in that society, what is one to conclude?

Of course, it may be that the influence is opposite to what may seem obvious: islam may make people barbarous, or barbarians may be particularly attracted to islam. I'm not sure how one would decide.