Hell is a later saying, that is the burning hell. Sheol is a place for the dead to stay after death. However, the Jews (at Jesus time) still believed that there is eternal punishment even in sheol.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Yahushua Ha Mashiach (Jesus) and The Law
- Thread starter Dark Priest
- Start date
Hell is a later saying, that is the burning hell. Sheol is a place for the dead to stay after death. However, the Jews (at Jesus time) still believed that there is eternal punishment even in sheol.
I already showed the link to wikipedia. There is a dispute between the Pharisee and Sadducees. The rabbis are with the Pharisees, so are the Jews in general as they are more or less educated by the rabbis and influenced by the Pharisees. Sadducees are just a bunch of high class folks taking care of the temple rituals and political issues.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Jewish belief was (and is) that there is a punishment in the form of separation from the divine, not "burning" or like that (physical torment was saved for specific cases, like suicides but even then, not in a "hell"). There also is rarely, if ever eternal punishment. Most punishment terminates before a year is out.
You are right. But the assumption that only the Jews know the truth is.....just an assumption. They believe a form of eternal punishment anyway.
Again, it boils down to whether you take salvation into account or not. If you believe that salvation is not the point, then there is no fundamental difference between religions. Just pick any of them, live your life span then it's all done.
However, if salvation matters, then only Christianity holds a valid point.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The dispute between the Pharisees and Saduccees was centered around a view topics including the validity of a centralized and authoritative oral law.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The teaching is that almost all people will go to sheol, but the duration of time there is variable with some maybe not ever coming out. It's not so much that there is active punishment going on as it is that one simply cannot get out of it until God directs as such, and that some may never get out.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The assumption is that Jews know what Judaism teaches. And, no, it doesn't teach an eternal punishment in almost all cases.
So? You mean that such that existence of immortal souls and eternal punishment are not the dispute?
Again, that remains your assertion. Pharisees and rabbis are teachers at the time of Jesus. They teach such things such that it is a common concept of the Jews, including the famous Jewish historian Josephus.
rosends
Well-Known Member
I'm saying that the notion of what Pharisaic Judaism believes about the soul and what happens after death was documented as a function of Pharisaic thought and writing and is not a matter of personal assertion as you said in post 78.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But that defies Torah itself. If one believes in heaven, which a great many Jews did and do, then it would be absurd to suggest that only Christians could possibly be judged to attain it. Heaven is never mentioned in Torah or Tanakh, but it is hinted at in Job, and with the provision of forgiveness promised to us in both Torah and Tanakh, why would one conclude that Jews, or people in other religions on no religion, could not be "saved"?
Yes, I'm very aware that the above is taught in many fundamentalist churches as I was brought up in one of them myself, but the idea that one is "saved" simply because of having a politically-correct belief about Jesus is really quite absurd.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
We agree on this point…for sure!
I think that you assume wrong. No one says that the Jews cannot be saved along history. If they abide by Mosaic Law, even Jesus said that they thus enter life. However, in terms of salvation, if they don't try their best to abide by Mosaic Law they may fail their salvation.
Matthew 19:17-19 (NIV)
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Genesis 17:14 (NIV)
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
gsa
Well-Known Member
Some Jews believed this. I do not know how much we can reliably reconstruct about the pervasiveness of any particular belief. The idea of eternal punishment is at least arguably a Hellenic transmission anyway; that it was adopted by some Jews in a time of intense Hellenization is hardly surprising, but there is very little support for it in the Torah (really none) and not much in the rabbinic traditions that followed the Second Temple period.
gsa
Well-Known Member
Without getting too far afield, that's just not the case; religious history is not that simple, and Christianity is not unique in its exclusive claims. There are sincere Muslims and Jews who have believed that Christian Trinitarians could not reach the equivalent of heaven, and might endure the equivalent of hell, because their beliefs required a rejection of monotheism.
One thing that does seem clear to me is that the Christian concept of salvation is tied up with the Christian concept of the Fall of Man and Original Sin. Would you agree with me that if the Genesis account is not true, if Adam and Eve were not the first two people who brought sin into the world, then Christianity as you describe cannot be valid? Because if so we can cut this conversation short!
rosends
Well-Known Member
The Pharisees were teachers before the time of Jesus and after. Their teachings are well recorded and extensive and, no they don't teach such things nor was it a common concept among Jews to believe in eternal punishment.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
By and large, we pretty much feel it's best to let God do the judging.
Levite
Higher and Higher
"Christians believe that..." doesn't actually mean anything when there are a plethora of actual Pharisaic writings and teachings that make it clear that they did not believe in Hell.
The Book of Enoch is not canonical, and there is no evidence that any significant proportion of the Jewish People ever accepted it as of real religious force.
And the teachings of the Sadducees is irrelevant, since they didn't believe in the eternality of the soul at all, and therefore certainly would not have believed in Hell, or any other kind of afterlife experience.
There were a number of different beliefs about afterlife amongst the early Rabbis: there was no uniform doctrine about the afterlife-- and, in fact, to this day there is no uniform dogma about afterlife in Judaism, but rather many ideas and beliefs are reflected.
But none of those beliefs, either in the days of the Pharisees and Tannaim, or today, or at any time between, has included eternal damnation or Hell-- Josephus was either mistaken, or in error, or was mistranslated-- I don't know which.
Even amongst those who have believed in Gehinnom, the purgatory-like afterlife experience that some of the early Rabbis believed in, they almost all taught that punishment in Gehinnom was for no more than a year, and not everyone went there. Only those who had not repented for their sins before death went there, and generally the stay was brief. And historically, the majority of Jews have not believed in Gehinnom at all.
First of all, no we don't. Second of all, we may or may not know "the truth," but we know what the Pharisees and Tannaim did and did not teach.
Last edited:
I fear that you are wasting your time with a person whose worldview is predicated upon the demonization of Jews.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Because I read it thus in one of my scholar's books, but not sure which one.
Now to save me from having to trawl through that lot you could use your own initiative. You could punch something like 'Galileans convert to judaism or something like that, which I just did to give example, and up popped several sites to read.
I'll save you that travail, by copying the first site I saw.=
Who were the "Galileans" in the Days of Jesus? | Travelujah
www.travelujah.com › Articles › History Articles
The question of who exactly the "Galileans" were during Biblical times is a much ... Hyrcanus forced the Gentile Galileans and Idumeans to convert to Judaism .