• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Wy could not the big bang also be consistent with a 6 day creation?

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
My understanding is that according to modern claims, dark matter is capable of travelling faster than the speed of light. It can also accelerate time. that suggests surely that the reverse is also true.

given the above, why couldnt we use the above as a mechanism for explaining an evolutionary creation that fits inside the literal 6 day creation period of Genesis Chapter 1?

Obviously, i do not thiink it may be used to explain the creation of Adam...the bible is far too specific in that is uses the potters manipulation of clay theme in describing how God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and [then came down close] breathing the breath of life into his nostrils.

But can YEC Christians (and even TEists) find common ground in the above idea?
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Can you cite some of the sources that have informed your understanding?
yes sure...the following isnt the original place where i got the idea...i was actually reading a different research paper that was focused on highlighting potential problems that the Microwave Background Radiation discovery may have for cosmology and the big bang.

Anyway...in answer to your question...

While it's true that nothing can travel through space faster than the speed of light in a vacuum, 186,282 miles per second (299,792 km/s), dark energy demonstrates that the fabric space itself is not bound by such speed limits. What is dark energy?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
While it's true that nothing can travel through space faster than the speed of light in a vacuum, 186,282 miles per second (299,792 km/s), dark energy demonstrates that the fabric space itself is not bound by such speed limits. What is dark energy?
My understanding is that according to modern claims, dark matter is capable of travelling faster than the speed of light. It can also accelerate time. that suggests surely that the reverse is also true.
[emphasis mine]

You're aware that that dark energy and dark matter aren't the same thing, yes?
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Given the understanding in your first paragraph is inaccurate, there is not point in proceeding with the ideas in the remainder of the post.
If you were not aware of such a view from the wider scientific community...I will attempt to ensure in future that i reference such things before answers like your popup.

In any case i have provided at least one reference in the post above which isnt the only one btw as there are others ( at least one i found from an academic research paper)

none of this will be relevant to you because "there is no point proceeding with ideas in the remainder of the post"!
 
Last edited:

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
If you were not aware of such a view from the wider scientific community...perhaps instead of just blurting out bull****...you might actually do some research yourself first to attempt to verify if there are in fact supporting claims?
I did. There is nothing I've found to support your claims. If you are going to come here making claims, the onus is on you provide citations to support them. You have yet to begin to do so.

In any case i have provided at least one reference in the post above. 9which isnt the only one btw)..none of this will be relevant to you because "there is no point proceeding with ideas in the remainder of the post"!
Your "reference" doesn't even refer to the same thing you are talking about in the OP.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
You're aware that that dark energy and dark matter aren't the same thing, yes?
that is not a point of contention...the reference article talks about "the fabric of space" being outside the bounds of the speed of light. My interpretation when reading is that its refering to dark matter as the fabric of space.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
This stuff is way above my pay grade, but I bet the reference to "energy" and "matter" is a hint.
mine too...thats why i posted the idea here.

What i think i am able to deduce is that whilst dark energy may not be able to exceed the speed of light, perhaps because it doesnt have to as it counterbalances gravitational forces...which for some reason are then tied into forces that are not within the realm of this mysterious thing we call"dark...", it appears that the "fabric of space" is dark matter and that is not bound by the speed of light.

This also suggests that it is not bound by time in the same way either. If so, then why could we not extrapolate God using this phenomonim (if i can call it that) for a literal 6 day creation?

Caveat...again, this cannot explain the creation of Man...but it surely can explain the creation of everything else up to Adam?


I am just trying to find a rational logical and working compromise between YEC and TEism. Woudnt it be fantastic for Christians if we do not actually need a God of the gaps, if we could have a biblically consistent creation story that actually fits with secular science. (BTW TEism is not biblically consistent...thats a fallacy despite what the Pope may claim)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
mine too...thats why i posted the idea here.

What i think i am able to deduce is that whilst dark energy may not be able to exceed the speed of light, perhaps because it doesnt have to as it counterbalances gravitational forces...which for some reason are then tied into forces that are not within the realm of this mysterious thing we call"dark...", it appears that the "fabric of space" is dark matter and that is not bound by the speed of light.

This also suggests that it is not bound by time in the same way either. If so, then why could we not extrapolate God using this phenomonim (if i can call it that) for a literal 6 day creation?

Caveat...again, this cannot explain the creation of Man...but it surely can explain the creation of everything else up to Adam?


I am just trying to find a rational logical and working compromise between YEC and TEism. Woudnt it be fantastic for Christians if we do not actually need a God of the gaps, if we could have a biblically consistent creation story that actually fits with secular science. (BTW TEism is not biblically consistent...thats a fallacy despite what the Pope may claim)
What is " TEism" supposed to be.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
none of this will be relevant to you because ...
Because you offered nothing relevant.

..., dark energy demonstrates that the fabric space itself is not bound by such speed limits. What is dark energy?
Looking at the linked article, it says in part:
  • its nature remains a complete mystery
  • Dark energy is a hypothetical form of energy
  • The only real answer to the question "what is dark energy?" currently is "we don't know"
I'm not seeing the part about "dark matter[being] capable of travelling faster than the speed of light," and I certainly don't see anything about dark energy laying a foundation for YEC theology.

Could the problem possibly be one not of dark matter or dark energy, but dingy thinking?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
My understanding is that according to modern claims, dark matter is capable of travelling faster than the speed of light. It can also accelerate time. that suggests surely that the reverse is also true.

given the above, why couldnt we use the above as a mechanism for explaining an evolutionary creation that fits inside the literal 6 day creation period of Genesis Chapter 1?

Obviously, i do not thiink it may be used to explain the creation of Adam...the bible is far too specific in that is uses the potters manipulation of clay theme in describing how God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and [then came down close] breathing the breath of life into his nostrils.

But can YEC Christians (and even TEists) find common ground in the above idea?
Short answer, they can because time is relative.
Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Age of the Universe
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
What is " TEism" supposed to be.
i should think the name provides the answer to such a question...Theistic Evolution, Biologos...Im not a TEist so its not up to me to defend or describe "whats its supposed to be". I can tell you what it does not do...and that is as i stated before, it is not consistent with biblical themes or theology (again, despite what the Pope may claim)

I would challenge the view that TEism can even claim to be Christian because if they truly break down their blending of evolution and creation, they cannot reconcile the idea that death and suffering came into this world at the time of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Prior to this the bible is very specific in that the entire plan of Salvation, and therefore the physical death of Christ on the cross, was specifically to make atonement for Romans 6:23 (for the wages of sin is death).

In doing that, Christ provides the only pathway of restoration back to God and the former "very good" state of this world after creation (which I believe according to the original language means it was a perfect creation). This is evidenced by Revelation 21

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’c and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
We know that its plainly inconsistent with the Bible to make the claim that death and suffering were in this world before Adam and Eve.

They could not possibly have evolved if one is to follow Bible themes and theology across its pages.

There are far too many passages of scripture that paint an in depth picture of exactly when, how, and why sin corrupted this world and none of this was before Adam and Eve sinned. We also have extensive biblical references that show how the corruption of sin is unnatural according to Gods laws, and how it was/is to be fixed according to the Christian model (if you like), and what the final outcome will be.

I believe that one of the most significant discreditors of TEism is the PHYSICAL death of Christ on the cross.

If Genesis 1-11 are allegory, then there is absolutely zero support for the Physical death of Christ on the cross. As a Creator who did all of this via evolution from afar, physical death as atonement is untenable!

It gets worse...because of the above issue, there are at least some TEists that i know (from Biologos community), who it seems do not believe in salvation! That is just plain heresy...those individuals are technically not Christian...so they are kidding themselves. They have become so blind to the infallibility of their science, they are willing to completely throw out the entire reason for Christ dying on the Cross ("to save His people from their sins").

The point is, TEism in its current form is not aligned with biblical themes or theology...particularly when it comes to the Atoning Physical death of Christ on the cross in order to provide a pathway to Salvation and Restoration.

So it would be nice if an avenue promoting acceptance of the bible theme of literal creation could be found that is both consistent with self revealing biblical theology and their scientific views. Perhaps this could be an avenue for that.
 
Last edited:

Audie

Veteran Member
i should think the name provides the answer to such a question...Theistic Evolution, Biologos...Im not a TEist so its not up to me to defend or describe "whats its supposed to be". I can tell you what it does not do...and that is as i stated before, it is not consistent with biblical themes or theology (again, despite what the Pope may claim)

I would challenge the view that TEism can even claim to be Christian because if they truly break down their blending of evolution and creation, they cannot reconcile the idea that death and suffering came into this world at the time of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Prior to this the bible is very specific in that the entire plan of Salvation, and therefore the physical death of Christ on the cross, was specifically to make atonement for Romans 6:23 (for the wages of sin is death).

In doing that, Christ provides the only pathway of restoration back to God and the former "very good" state of this world after creation (which I believe according to the original language means it was a perfect creation). This is evidenced by Revelation 21

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’c and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
We know that its plainly inconsistent with the Bible to make the claim that death and suffering were in this world before Adam and Eve.

They could not possibly have evolved if one is to follow Bible themes and theology across its pages.

There are far too many passages of scripture that paint an in depth picture of exactly when, how, and why sin corrupted this world and none of this was before Adam and Eve sinned. We also have extensive biblical references that show how the corruption of sin is unnatural according to Gods laws, and how it was/is to be fixed according to the Christian model (if you like), and what the final outcome will be.

I believe that one of the most significant discreditors of TEism is the PHYSICAL death of Christ on the cross.

If Genesis 1-11 are allegory, then there is absolutely zero support for the Physical death of Christ on the cross. As a Creator who did all of this via evolution from afar, physical death as atonement is untenable!

It gets worse...because of the above issue, there are at least some TEists that i know (from Biologos community), who it seems do not believe in salvation! That is just plain heresy...those individuals are technically not Christian...so they are kidding themselves. They have become so blind to the infallibility of their science, they are willing to completely throw out the entire reason for Christ dying on the Cross ("to save His people from their sins").

The point is, TEism in its current form is not aligned with biblical themes or theology...particularly when it comes to the Atoning Physical death of Christ on the cross in order to provide a pathway to Salvation and Restoration.

But life most clearly has evolved, and
with matching clarity we see that the Bible
story is incompatible with fact.
I don't need to point that out, you've done
It for me.

Its nothing to me if Christianity wishes thro
such means to define itself into irrelevance
and nonexistence.

Is there some additional point you wish to make?

ETA I doubt very much the good folks at biologos
are such blithering idiots, so grotesquely ignorant
as to think anything in science is " infallible".

That's an utterly absurd charge you've made.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
But life most clearly has evolved, and
with matching clarity we see that the Bible
story is incompatible with fact.
I don't need to point that out, you've done
It for me.
And so Christianity is not for you...you are only interested in a corrupted interpretation...that's not how this works.

Again, the bible specifically claims Christ died physically on the cross to pay the wages of sin.

Therefore it is not possible to be a Christian and believe Genesis 1-11 is an allegory and that is because Theistic evolution cannot accept that death and suffering only wnterr3d this world after the fall of Adam and Eve.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
But life most clearly has evolved, and
with matching clarity we see that the Bible
story is incompatible with fact.
I don't need to point that out, you've done
It for me.
And so Christianity is not for you...you are only interested in a corrupted interpretation...that's not how this works.

Again, the bible specifically claims Christ died physically on the cross to pay the wages of sin. Spiritual death of Adam and Eve (as claimed by TEists in order to try to make the bible fit the science) is inconsistent with the physical model of Atonement given via the Old Testament Sanctuary service.

There is also Christs physical incarnation, physical ministry, physical death on the cross, physical ressurection, physical ascention into heaven, and finally, the physical second coming where those who are saved are physically taken to heaven.

Therefore it is not possible to be a Christian and believe Genesis 1-11 is an allegory and that is because Theistic Evolution cannot accept that death and suffering only enterred this world after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Teism hits a blockade at the very first chapter of the bible...that completely stuffs the consistency of that entire wor,d view....its not biblical and certainly lying noting harmony with Christ as a Saviour...who came specifically to save His people from their sins.
 
Last edited:
Top