Would/Should God communicate directly to everyone in the world?

[Nimos]

I assume you are referring to the Bible. Why do you assume that God wanted to make it clear to everyone? Maybe there was a reason why God did not care if it was clear to everyone or maybe God wanted to leave it to everyone to figure it out as best they could, knowing that in the future it would be explained so everyone could understand it.

Obviously nothing as such prevent God from wanting to do as you suggest, but to me its merely a way to create unnecessary excuses.

Could God not care to reveal the truth to everyone? Sure, but it doesn't offer a reasonable explanation for why this should be the case. The one you jump to, is then that this is done through messengers, because the messengers themselves say so. But that doesn't offer any explanation to why God would not reveal himself to everyone and it allow these self proclaimed messengers to decide what others ought to believe in.

This is not an effective way for God to reveal himself to people

How would it be possible to reveal ALL the teachings in the Bible to every single person in the world living back when the Bible was written, and how would people remember all those?

If God is able to reveal himself to the Jews, he would be able to reveal himself to others as well. He could have done this with the same teachings as he gave the Jews. So they would share the same stories. The reason this would make little sense, is because the Jews was his chosen people. This is the absolute most logic explanation. So im talking about that we would find writings from the Norsemen showing the exact same stories as those revealed to the Jews, and we would find them all over Earth. But we don't.

Why isn’t it okay for God to explain it to a Messenger who writes it in scriptures, after which time we can read what He wrote? Why should God explain it to each and every human being in the world?

This is what I think is the biggest issue, the assumption that these messengers for whatever reason is needed. Nothing in relationship to God and what he is capable of requires messengers. So adding a need for them, requires an explanation and also evidence for why these are even messengers in the first place.

You have already listed a lot of things that you believe are evidence, but which are not.
If I recall correctly, one of the evidence is the person and life of Baha'u'llah, this is not evidence for anything related to whether or not he is a messenger or not.

It is not a matter of whether there is a reason for it or not. People are either capable of understanding God speaking to them directly or they are not. This of course depends upon the nature of God and the nature of humans, how the human brain was created.

By far the majority of people can understand the whole concept of God, some might not care about it, because they might be lost simply hearing the idea of angels, God talking snakes and donkeys. But its not the same as them not understanding it, if all of this were probably explained to them. Again these things in their basic form are not all that complicated, they simply make no sense due to the lack of explanations and contradictions, both within the scriptures themselves and between people.

No one on Earth, could make a reasonable argument for why Christianity or Bahai faith is to be believed more than Norse mythology is, for instant, its purely based on faith.

The answers to those questions have been explained in scriptures, so why would God need to explain the same thing to each and every human being in the world? If you cannot find the answers in the Bible, you can find them in the Baha’i Writings.

No of them are explained. Me writing down answers to these questions and claiming that God told me, doesn't make it true. You can choose to believe that, Im a messenger as well or you can not. And that is why Bahai faith offers as much explanation to these things as the bible does or any other scripture for that matter. None of it can be verified or tested for its validity. So either you can accept that, which is what most believers does or you can stay skeptical and say that until evidence are actually produced, there is no reason to jump to conclusions, which is what atheists do.

I do not remember us talking about that. I do not see how those are in conflict. If God ordained Baha’u’llah or Jesus or any Prophet to be a Messenger, God is not going to allow someone to interfere with the mission being accomplished and the message getting out, because God is omnipotent so God can override the free will of anyone who might try to do such a thing.

You own example illustrate the conflict, so not really sure how you don't see them being in conflict?

If you have free will, but the moment you plan on doing anything that would interfere with a prophecy, God override the free will, then there is no free will. Because what you wanted to do is no longer an option.

No, it does not matter if almost everyone rejected God’s teachings and laws because there would be a few people who accepted them...

But nothing prevent everyone from doing it right? Due to our free will or again does God override it so at least some people have to believe to carry on the message?

We have a rational mind but we do not have a divine mind. Only a man with a divine mind can understand communication from God.

I don't really know how to answer this, except I really is not sure what a divine mind is.. or how one would demonstrate it. It seems a lot like just adding stuff to something for which there is already lacking explanations.
.

 

[Thief]

Easily done due to lack of evidence.



Nope. You are still making the same mistake that your suspicion is correct then arguing from that point.

as belief is defined as an unsupported …..truth

your denial is noted

and dismissed

 

[Thief]

Of course Messengers have free will.

not sure of that

an eighty year old man climbed a mountain to meet his Maker

that man's will was then set aside

 

[Thief]

Where are they today? Do all religions have these prophets that do get messages from God?

anyone who speaks of his God unto his fellowman......plays the prophet

and heaven hears it
so too the devil

here at the forum there's a shallow rule
speak as you please but label your statement as a belief

as if it matters here

as we stand before God and heaven.....
They will ask.....What do you believe?

you get to quote yourself
or your Prophet

who will be offended?

heaven will ask.....Who told you that?
WHY?......did you believe it?

you need a good response
or the angelic will draw sword
your belief will stop right there

then they will go seeking your Prophet
asking.....
We hear report of something YOU said
by one of your followers

was he one of YOURS?

 

[CG Didymus]

I assume you are referring to the Bible. Why do you assume that God wanted to make it clear to everyone?

Moses makes it very clear what supposedly God told him. But the message wasn't for everyone. It was for the Hebrews. They were God's chosen people. No one else on the planet, with all their various gods and beliefs were considered to be following the true God. The God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 30:7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you.
8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today.
9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors,
10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.​

I assume you are referring to the Bible. How would it be possible to reveal ALL the teachings in the Bible to every single person in the world living back when the Bible was written, and how would people remember all those? How could they write all that down? Then what would happen to all the people who were born after that? Would God reveal the equivalent of what is in the Bible to everyone who was born after that?

Let's pretend that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, then who wrote the rest? There were no other messenger/manifestations after that? There's the book of Joshua, Judges... books about all the different prophets. But did they write them? Did they get their messages directly from their God? It seems like it. Lots of them say, "Thus says the Lord." There are appearances of angels that interact with various people in the Bible. Did those things happen?

No, not necessarily. You have called these things just "stories". Sure, I say they are probably myth. Things made up by people to explain why things are the way they are. But the Bible is about the Jews and their God. It has nothing to do with any progression from Hinduism and Buddhism. Christians, Moslems and Baha'is force it into their myths... but change things in the story to make it fit.

Some Christians try to make a literal interpretation fit. Baha'is try to make improbable things "symbolic". But why do the Baha'is use it at all if the events didn't really happen and they have to explain them away? The God of the Bible can easily be seen as capricious and wrathful. He had Hebrews kill Hebrews because some disobeyed his commands. This is one instance. While Moses was on the mountain talking to God, the Hebrews made a golden calf.

“This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ”
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.​

God wasn't finished with them yet...

33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
34 ...I will punish them for their sin.”
35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.
​

This is the God you believe in? This is the God that is All-Loving and All-Knowing? It's like he sets people up to fail and then punishes them when they do fail. But really, you and I don't believe those "stories". Was there an Adam? Was there a flood? Was there even a Moses and Abraham? Who knows. These are people in the story about how Judaism came to be. Does it have to be true? We don't know who wrote it all. The story continues hundreds of years after Moses, so there is no manifestation of God writing it or telling it. Were all the stories about the prophets real? Did Daniel's friends survive unharmed from a fiery furnace? Did Jonah get swallowed by a big fish? Sounds mythical to me, how about to you?

They are definitely great spiritual stories, although probably mythical... but doesn't that make the God talked about in those stories a myth also? I think even for Baha'is, it would be hard to say that the stories about the actions of that God are consistent with the God that the Baha'is say is real.

 

[CG Didymus]

God did not mislead them because God did not write the Bible. Men wrote the Bible, men who were purportedly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Then men also MIS-interpreted the Bible and created the false doctrines of the Church.
George Townshend, Christ and Baha'u'llah, The False Prophets, pp. 25-30

On top of that, suffice to say that what Paul wrote is not what Jesus taught.
How Paul changed the course of Christianity

It is too much of a mess for me to straighten out so why would I waste my time on it?

Yes, God nor Jesus wrote the NT. Paul was not the manifestation, but he wrote most of what is in the NT and that Christians call the "Word of God". So why would Jews convert to that religion? Why would atheists believe in the God of that religion? That God is the one that calls all people sinful and lost until they turn to his Son Jesus... then, because of his Son's sacrifice, he will forgive the sins of those people. All others he says will be doomed to hellfire.

No, who wants to believe that? No, let's not waste our time with that religion. And what is worse, like you said, men took it and added things to it and misinterpreted it. That Jesus is God. That the devil is there tempting people. That demons can possess people. All scare tactics to get the poor ignorant masses to follow the Church and live in fear of the great wrathful God of the Bible.

You distance yourself from the Bible. But the Baha'i Faith, I think, supports it too much... yet, at the same time, denies the things in the NT and Bible that they don't like. The messengers and the God that sent them are sending mixed messages about the truth. And that is just going back to Judaism and Christianity. Now throw in Hinduism and Buddhism? Both of which the Baha'i Faith doesn't say a whole lot about.

Anyway, God is a horrible communicator. God did not communicate through his messenger. He let men write, and screw up, the message that his Son Jesus brought? No. that was not a very good idea. Or, but hopefully not, the Christians are right and the story in the NT is exactly what God wanted to say.

 

[CG Didymus]

God HAS spoken, but not to everyone, only to the Prophets God CHOSE to speak to.

So, not only do some Buddhists believe they can become enlightened to the true self or reality, and probably Hindu sages also can become fully realized, but many of the Native Tribal people had vision quests or similar things that they went through to each get a personal message from their God, The Great Spirit. All these are examples of people with different religious beliefs than the Baha'is that do believe they can connect to or get direct messages from their God or whatever they believe is the ultimate spiritual reality in their religion. So what would Baha'is say to that? That God really didn't communicate to these people? Or, that being enlightened really isn't becoming "one" with God?

 

[Trailblazer]

not sure of that

an eighty year old man climbed a mountain to meet his Maker

that man's will was then set aside

Yes, sometimes that happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the God you believe in? This is the God that is All-Loving and All-Knowing? It's like he sets people up to fail and then punishes them when they do fail. But really, you and I don't believe those "stories". Was there an Adam? Was there a flood? Was there even a Moses and Abraham? Who knows. These are people in the story about how Judaism came to be. Does it have to be true? We don't know who wrote it all. The story continues hundreds of years after Moses, so there is no manifestation of God writing it or telling it. Were all the stories about the prophets real? Did Daniel's friends survive unharmed from a fiery furnace? Did Jonah get swallowed by a big fish? Sounds mythical to me, how about to you?

They are definitely great spiritual stories, although probably mythical... but doesn't that make the God talked about in those stories a myth also? I think even for Baha'is, it would be hard to say that the stories about the actions of that God are consistent with the God that the Baha'is say is real.

As I have said before, the following represent the official Baha'i position and there are more quotes on the link below, I just picked out the ones I think are best. From those quotes, maybe you can do the math.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[1213]

...
1. Do you think God (if God exists) would communicate directly to everyone?
...
2. Do you think it is *reasonable* to expect God (if God exists) to communicate directly to everyone?
...
3. Do you think that *rational people* would expect God to communicate directly to everyone?
...

I think God would do so, if necessary. Because that has not apparently happened, I think God doesn’t think it is necessary. I think there is no good reason to expect it, if it is not necessary.

However, I believe it is possible that God speaks to everyone, but many just don’t want to listen, they have shut their ears and eyes, because they don’t want to hear or see.

 

[Trailblazer]

You distance yourself from the Bible. But the Baha'i Faith, I think, supports it too much... yet, at the same time, denies the things in the NT and Bible that they don't like. The messengers and the God that sent them are sending mixed messages about the truth. And that is just going back to Judaism and Christianity. Now throw in Hinduism and Buddhism? Both of which the Baha'i Faith doesn't say a whole lot about.

The Baha'i Faith does not support the Bible in the sense that it is authentic, as I said in my previous post with those quotes. We only say it is God's testimony, but it was through men so there was a lot of room for errors to enter in.

Baha'i does not say a lot about Buddhism and Hinduism because they are not Abrahamic religions and the one true God was not revealed in them.

Anyway, God is a horrible communicator. God did not communicate through his messenger. He let men write, and screw up, the message that his Son Jesus brought? No. that was not a very good idea. Or, but hopefully not, the Christians are right and the story in the NT is exactly what God wanted to say.

God did allow it because we have free will. But God also knew He would be sending Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha to straighten it all out. Because people have free will they can choose to look at what was written to straighten it out or they can remain confused or choose to keep believing as they do till hell freezes over. It is no skin off God's nose because God does not need their belief in Baha'u'llah. Everyone has to make their own choices.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

 

[Trailblazer]

So, not only do some Buddhists believe they can become enlightened to the true self or reality, and probably Hindu sages also can become fully realized, but many of the Native Tribal people had vision quests or similar things that they went through to each get a personal message from their God, The Great Spirit. All these are examples of people with different religious beliefs than the Baha'is that do believe they can connect to or get direct messages from their God or whatever they believe is the ultimate spiritual reality in their religion. So what would Baha'is say to that? That God really didn't communicate to these people? Or, that being enlightened really isn't becoming "one" with God?

They can believe whatever they WANT to believe because they have free will.
And I can believe whatever I want to believe because I have free will...
These beliefs are contradictory to Baha'i beliefs so we cannot make them work together.
I think people want what they want so they imagine things that never happened, but that is just my personal opinion.

I do not know what other Baha'is say about that but from what I have seen on a Baha'i forum, some Baha'is pander to these beliefs rather than explaining they are not Baha'i beliefs. I do not pander to anyone, I am direct but I try to be respectful. I think anyone who believes that the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, communicates directly to them is imagining it. The following represents the Baha'i position about God and how God communicates. I suggest that Baha'is know what it is, because it is so basic.

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 317-318

The Manifestations of God (Messengers) are the only way God communicates to humans, according to the Baha'i Faith.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Vinayaka]

So, not only do some Buddhists believe they can become enlightened to the true self or reality, and probably Hindu sages also can become fully realized, but many of the Native Tribal people had vision quests or similar things that they went through to each get a personal message from their God, The Great Spirit. All these are examples of people with different religious beliefs than the Baha'is that do believe they can connect to or get direct messages from their God or whatever they believe is the ultimate spiritual reality in their religion. So what would Baha'is say to that? That God really didn't communicate to these people? Or, that being enlightened really isn't becoming "one" with God?

So true ... I see God as much like a transmitter of radio waves. He sends out the message, the ether is the medium, and the receivers are those who are able to tune in. The psychology of communication has 3 components: sender, medium, and receiver. The entire purpose of the Agamic mystical Hindu temple is communication between the 3 worlds. One definition of a bhaktar is 'a person who can communicate with God'. At the average Hindu temple, we see a range of folks, some who are really good at it, some who have no clue, and some who get it some of the time, but not always. But the point is that it is there. It's for everyone, yet not everyone can hear. I've also seen Abrahamics run from the temple as the idea of it, or the vibration of it is very scary to them, so unfamiliar they are with feeling it. Most Abrahamics are too wise to even enter the place as they 'know' it's of the devil.

For me, this 'messenger' idea is just someone who wants to control the radio station so only a certain message can get through.

But, as we all know, I believe it's very different paradigms, and like you, I have an anti-Baha'i agenda.

This will add to the Hindu perspective ... Puja | What is puja?

 

[Trailblazer]

So true ... I see God as much like a transmitter of radio waves. He sends out the message, the ether is the medium, and the receivers are those who are able to tune in.

For me, this 'messenger' idea is just someone who wants to control the radio station so only a certain message can get through.

Funny thing, I see just the opposite. It is the anti-Baha'i agenda people who want to control the radio waves so a certain message cannot get through. Why that message of Baha'u'llah bothers them so much only they know, and God knows, because God knows everything.

 

[Vinayaka]

Funny thing, I see just the opposite. It is the anti-Baha'i agenda people who want to control the radio waves so a certain message cannot get through. Why that message of Baha'u'llah bothers them so much only they know, and God knows, because God knows everything.

I was responding to CG, just to add to his point. Carry on.

 

[Thief]

Yes, sometimes that happens.

and if it happened everytime
each occasion of the human form....

we would be like the Borg of Star Trek fame

or that other collective in the Bodysnatchers movie

 

[Trailblazer]

Obviously nothing as such prevent God from wanting to do as you suggest, but to me its merely a way to create unnecessary excuses.

Excuses for what? Why would God need excuses for allowing humans to make mistakes that God knew would later be corrected? That seems backwards to me to blame God for mistakes humans make.

How could an All-Knowing and All-Wise God need any excuses?

Could God not care to reveal the truth to everyone? Sure, but it doesn't offer a reasonable explanation for why this should be the case.

What is reasonable and just is that not everyone deserves to get the truth handed to them without having to work for it. Do we get a college degree without going to college? Why should truth from God be any different?

The one you jump to, is then that this is done through messengers, because the messengers themselves say so. But that doesn't offer any explanation to why God would not reveal himself to everyone and it allow these self proclaimed messengers to decide what others ought to believe in.

Logically speaking, the only way we can know it is done through Messengers is if the Messengers say so. The Messengers do not decide what others ought to believe, God decides that and then God reveals that to the Messengers.

This is not an effective way for God to reveal himself to people.

If you think it is ineffective, I would like to know what you think would be a better way?

If God is able to reveal himself to the Jews, he would be able to reveal himself to others as well. He could have done this with the same teachings as he gave the Jews. So they would share the same stories. The reason this would make little sense, is because the Jews was his chosen people. This is the absolute most logic explanation. So im talking about that we would find writings from the Norsemen showing the exact same stories as those revealed to the Jews, and we would find them all over Earth. But we don't.

Jews were chosen to receive the Torah scriptures at a certain place and at a certain time.

But Messengers of God have come to other people at other times and in other places. What about the New Testament and the Qur’an, who do you think was chosen to get those scriptures?

This is what I think is the biggest issue, the assumption that these messengers for whatever reason is needed. Nothing in relationship to God and what he is capable of requires messengers. So adding a need for them, requires an explanation and also evidence for why these are even messengers in the first place.

How can you say that Messengers are not needed if you do not have a better way? The issue is not God’s capabilities, it is about human capabilities, whether humans need them in order to understand God.

You have already listed a lot of things that you believe are evidence, but which are not.
If I recall correctly, one of the evidence is the person and life of Baha'u'llah, this is not evidence for anything related to whether or not he is a messenger or not.

We have what we have that Baha’u’llah has provided as evidence of His claim to be a Messenger of God. Some people will see it as evidence and others won’t see it as anything.

By far the majority of people can understand the whole concept of God, some might not care about it, because they might be lost simply hearing the idea of angels, God talking snakes and donkeys. But its not the same as them not understanding it, if all of this were probably explained to them. Again these things in their basic form are not all that complicated, they simply make no sense due to the lack of explanations and contradictions, both within the scriptures themselves and between people.

People can understand certain concepts about who God such as God is omnipotent and omniscient but that does not mean they could understand God if god spoke to them directly.

No one on Earth, could make a reasonable argument for why Christianity or Bahai faith is to be believed more than Norse mythology is, for instant, its purely based on faith.

I could make a good argument but whether it would be accepted is another matter.

No of them are explained. Me writing down answers to these questions and claiming that God told me, doesn't make it true. You can choose to believe that, Im a messenger as well or you can not. And that is why Bahai faith offers as much explanation to these things as the bible does or any other scripture for that matter. None of it can be verified or tested for its validity. So either you can accept that, which is what most believers does or you can stay skeptical and say that until evidence are actually produced, there is no reason to jump to conclusions, which is what atheists do.

Do you really think that God is going to answer all your questions personally like someone would answer an e-mail? God is not a human being and God does not kowtow to humans and what they want. We get what God provides and we can either choose to trust God or not. God cannot be tested, God tests humans. You have everything backwards.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

I love that verse. That explains why God does not provide proof, because then we would not need faith. Anyone who sets criteria for God as to how He should reveal Himself (e.g., directly to everyone) is not earnestly seeking God. I wonder what God thinks about that? I guess we will never know but those who set the criteria might find out after they die.

You own example illustrate the conflict, so not really sure how you don't see them being in conflict?

If you have free will, but the moment you plan on doing anything that would interfere with a prophecy, God override the free will, then there is no free will. Because what you wanted to do is no longer an option.

But our free will would not interfere with a prophecy being fulfilled because that fulfillment was preordained by God long ago.

But nothing prevent everyone from doing it right? Due to our free will or again does God override it so at least some people have to believe to carry on the message?

What prevents everyone from getting the message is the people who do not get the message. Belief in God and the Messengers is always a free will choice and God never overrides that choice because God wants us to believe only by choice, not because He made us believe.

I don't really know how to answer this, except I really is not sure what a divine mind is.. or how one would demonstrate it. It seems a lot like just adding stuff to something for which there is already lacking explanations.

I do not know what a divine mind is either because I do not have one. But it explains how Messengers are different from ordinary men, which is why they can receive and carry messages to ordinary humans. The souls of ordinary humans come into being at the moment of conception but the souls of Prophets are preexistent. I assume that the way they get a divine mind is from being with God in the spiritual world before being born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Nimos]

Excuses for what? Why would God need excuses for allowing humans to make mistakes that God knew would later be corrected? That seems backwards to me to blame God for mistakes humans make.

How could an All-Knowing and All-Wise God need any excuses?

I don't mean that God make excuses, but that people make up excuses on behalf of God in order to explain why he doesn't do certain things.

Like when someone raises the question why an all loving God allows a new born baby to be born with a deadly condition, what exactly have the child done? The amount of harm it causes to its parents and family etc.?
Unable to answer why an all loving God would do this, while still maintaining that he is all loving, one need to come up with an excuse of how something like this can happen. Which could be explanations like "God work in mysteries ways" or "We simply can't understand God".
But none of these explain anything but are merely excuses. That is what I mean.

We have what we have that Baha’u’llah has provided as evidence of His claim to be a Messenger of God. Some people will see it as evidence and others won’t see it as anything.

I think, I tried to explain it to you as well in the other post. Evidence need to be consistent or it will be a mess. Imagine that the two of us were trying to solve a crime, but had completely different understandings of what evidence are. It would be impossible to solve the case. So for anything to be considered evidence, we need to follow the same rules, which need to meet some sort of standard.

What is reasonable and just is that not everyone deserves to get the truth handed to them without having to work for it. Do we get a college degree without going to college? Why should truth from God be any different?

There is a huge difference here, there is no logical reason to assume that people would have to work hard to know the truth from God. Looking at the bible the Jewish people do not work hard for this, it is handed to them on a silver plate through Moses or directly from God, for which they are all aware is present with them, as he speaks and perform miracles in front of them constantly.

The reason one is not handed a college degree without any work, is because the process of how one obtain such degree is well understood and established. It is a step in the process of learning, which have been developed and fine tuned over many years. Any adult person that have ever talked to a child know that these are not born with the ability to obtain a college degree, at such early age, but that it requires them to reach a certain level of maturity first, and have the ability to read and write, do math etc. Therefore college degrees are not handed out to everyone, but requires people to work for them. But again this process is well understood, but this is not the case with obtaining the truth from God, as there is no established process of what this requires. So claiming that people do not deserve this and that they need to work for it, is simply making up excuses for God, as also mentioned above.

Logically speaking, the only way we can know it is done through Messengers is if the Messengers say so. The Messengers do not decide what others ought to believe, God decides that and then God reveals that to the Messengers.

Exactly and that is where most atheists or skeptics would say "Hold your horses.. and ask why should we believe such person?" I can't verify that these messengers got anything from God and neither can they. Which from a logical point of view, give me no reason to believe such claim.

If you think it is ineffective, I would like to know what you think would be a better way?

As I mentioned to you in the other post as well. The way I would do it, if I were God, would be in a way that no one would be in doubt. Angels coming down from heaven, Jesus, Moses and the whole gang. As God in all my glory I would inform all humans of the truth, I would perform miracles which would defy natural laws.

But Messengers of God have come to other people at other times and in other places. What about the New Testament and the Qur’an, who do you think was chosen to get those scriptures?

This to me is merely pushing the questions to other religions, which is not able to answer any of these questions either or provide any better evidence than you are. And that is the whole issue, that it is completely based on faith. So them claiming that stuff have been revealed to them, is no difference than if some random person claimed the same tomorrow and started to write down stuff. Because based on your own logic, God could have chosen to come to this person, at that time.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

To me this is encouraging people to seek blind faith and im not really keen on that.

But our free will would not interfere with a prophecy being fulfilled because that fulfillment was preordained by God long ago.

If it were preordained by God, then there is no free will. Because using your free will, there is nothing you can do to prevent it. And you have no clue what could affect a prophecy, it might be you simply being a certain place at a given point in time, that could interfere with the prophecy, you have no way of knowing that and therefore it would make little sense to talk about free will.

I do not know what a divine mind is either because I do not have one.

So if you don't know what a divine mind is either or if it even exists, then why jump to the conclusion that it is true, rather than demanding those claiming so, to provide you with evidence for it first? And then you can draw your conclusions based on that.

 

[night912]

Excuses for what? Why would God need excuses for allowing humans to make mistakes that God knew would later be corrected? That seems backwards to me to blame God for mistakes humans make.

How could an All-Knowing and All-Wise God need any excuses?

What is reasonable and just is that not everyone deserves to get the truth handed to them without having to work for it. Do we get a college degree without going to college? Why should truth from God be any different?

Logically speaking, the only way we can know it is done through Messengers is if the Messengers say so. The Messengers do not decide what others ought to believe, God decides that and then God reveals that to the Messengers.

If you think it is ineffective, I would like to know what you think would be a better way?

Jews were chosen to receive the Torah scriptures at a certain place and at a certain time.

But Messengers of God have come to other people at other times and in other places. What about the New Testament and the Qur’an, who do you think was chosen to get those scriptures?


How can you say that Messengers are not needed if you do not have a better way? The issue is not God’s capabilities, it is about human capabilities, whether humans need them in order to understand God.


We have what we have that Baha’u’llah has provided as evidence of His claim to be a Messenger of God. Some people will see it as evidence and others won’t see it as anything.

People can understand certain concepts about who God such as God is omnipotent and omniscient but that does not mean they could understand God if god spoke to them directly.


I could make a good argument but whether it would be accepted is another matter.

Do you really think that God is going to answer all your questions personally like someone would answer an e-mail? God is not a human being and God does not kowtow to humans and what they want. We get what God provides and we can either choose to trust God or not. God cannot be tested, God tests humans. You have everything backwards.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

I love that verse. That explains why God does not provide proof, because then we would not need faith. Anyone who sets criteria for God as to how He should reveal Himself (e.g., directly to everyone) is not earnestly seeking God. I wonder what God thinks about that? I guess we will never know but those who set the criteria might find out after they die.

But our free will would not interfere with a prophecy being fulfilled because that fulfillment was preordained by God long ago.

What prevents everyone from getting the message is the people who do not get the message. Belief in God and the Messengers is always a free will choice and God never overrides that choice because God wants us to believe only by choice, not because He made us believe.

I do not know what a divine mind is either because I do not have one. But it explains how Messengers are different from ordinary men, which is why they can receive and carry messages to ordinary humans. The souls of ordinary humans come into being at the moment of conception but the souls of Prophets are preexistent. I assume that the way they get a divine mind is from being with God in the spiritual world before being born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

So you're back to just using the illogical UFO reasoning.

"I just saw an Unidentified Flying Object. I don't know what it was but it's an alien ship."

If you don't know or understand what it is, then you don't know or understand what it is. You don't know what a divine mind is, but you know that a messenger have divine mind. Irrational way of reasoning.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If God exists and God is omnipotent, hypothetically speaking God could communicate directly to everyone rather than communicating through Messengers/Prophets. By everyone I mean every one of the 7.53 billion people in the world.

1. Do you think God (if God exists) would communicate directly to everyone?

• If you think that God would do this, please explain why you think so.
• If you think that God would not do this, please explain why you think so.

2. Do you think it is *reasonable* to expect God (if God exists) to communicate directly to everyone?

• If you think that is a reasonable expectation, please explain why you think so.
• If you think it is an unreasonable expectation, please explain why you think so.

3. Do you think that *rational people* would expect God to communicate directly to everyone?

• If you think rational people would expect God to do that, please explain why you think so.
• If you think rational people would not expect God to do that, please explain why you think so.

Well, overall answer. He's god. Why not?

1. I think god would cause he's god. Assuming he is god, he could do anything. I'd hope god want to communicate with people directly. It's kind of like a child knowing their parent but someone else tells that child he or she can only speak to the parent through the words of someone he only knows by words. Why would a child pick the stranger by words when he or she can speak and let the mother live with that child directly?

2. It's reasonable. If god wants to know people, I'd assume he could come down as spirit (or however interpreted) and "talk" to people one-to-one.

3. If I would say I would expect the abrahamic god to communicate directly. Why would I consider a god a parent when he "chooses" to only talk with me through the words of strangers?

I mean, if he's GOD, why not?

From how I would interpret is it's human believers need to have something written and a medium to god. It's the believers (some, not all god believers have mediums) limitations to know god; so, they choose to learn about him through the revelations and testimonies of others. Nothing wrong with that. Directly. Through words. Ritual. Prayer. Singing. Why right or wrong?