Word of Faith debate

[Scuba Pete]

6But godliness with contentment is great gain.

One of my favorite verses and it has NOTHING to do with financial gain!

KING JAMES VERSION

I'd like to welcome you to the 21st century. You might want to read a modern translation.

I never once said " gain is godliness".

No, but you did post:

i am defending those who believe God in order to obtain money.

It appears from this quote that your motivation to believe God is money.

etc. etc. i can go on and on for days , but your seminary teaching will get in the way.

I am sure you could and make many more erroneous assumptions: I have never been to seminary, much less attended one.

you are not more godly by the amount of money you have, but money is a great blessing for you to spread the gospel, bless your family, etc. etc.

That's a far cry from bribing believers with promises of worldly treasures for believing.

if you don't think so, then just send me your next paycheck. only take out for food and clothes ( o holy one!)

You have no idea how much of my money I give to charity but feel free to try and match it! It's far greater than %10 of my income and please don't take offense, but you are not on my list of worthy recipients.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Don't you understand? You just lack faith, just have faith in your heart and confess your healing and God has to obey because you used the law of faith, you must speak out your healing and you will be healed.

Please don't mock someone with a disability. Are you suggesting that PAUL lacked faith?

II Corinthians 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. NIV

 

[*Paul*]

You know Rocka, I'm so sorry if I offended you, i remember how believable this stuff was once and how convincing the teachers can be as I grew up with this and came back to it after i first was saved, but I do with all my heart believe that this is a terrible movement which is not from God and it grieves me it really does.

 

[*Paul*]

Please don't mock someone with a disability. Are you suggesting that PAUL lacked faith?

II Corinthians 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. NIV

Please don't misunderstand me, I thought the smiley I used would give away my tone. I don't believe any of that teaching.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Out of curiosity, what do the word of faith folks think about this scripture:

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Quite simply, you need some cultural reference to understand this scripture. During this time, many people believed the SAME THING as these Word of Life People: God gives financial rewards to the pious. They thought that the wealthy were a SHOE-IN to get into heaven. Jesus is not condemning the rich, but puts their piety in perspective: Everyone is a sinner and we are all headed to hell together! You happened to leave off the subsequent two sentences which really bring this concept to life. I am sure this was not on purpose, and so I will quote them here for you:

Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." NIV

Obviously, only God can save us.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Please don't misunderstand me, I thought the smiley I used would give away my tone. I don't believe any of that teaching.

Sorry for the misunderstanding then.

 

[rocka21]

Out of curiosity, what do the word of faith folks think about this scripture:



Matt 19:21-23
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

this is an easy one.

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

you see , these possessions had control over him. they had his heart.


23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

why would they ask this???? mabey, because they had money too?


26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

shall receive an hundredfold! looks like he was tring to give him MORE than what he already had.
30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

again, its not the amount, its the heart.



NEXT!

 

[rocka21]

another interesting scripture passage:



Luke 12:13-34
13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry.
20 But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body [is more] than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

very true! i love this scripture!

my life does not consist of the things that i have. and i am very RICH towards God.

NEXT

 

[rocka21]

*facepalms*

I'm guessing that those who come up to me and tell me I'll be cured of my disabilities if I go to their Church come from this cheery little movement. Of all the things to ask of G-d... money and magical cures.

does God supply my needs?:yes:


does Jesus heal the sick?:yes:

 

[Comprehend]

Quite simply, you need some cultural reference to understand this scripture. During this time, many people believed the SAME THING as these Word of Life People: God gives financial rewards to the pious. They thought that the wealthy were a SHOE-IN to get into heaven. Jesus is not condemning the rich, but puts their piety in perspective: Everyone is a sinner and we are all headed to hell together! You happened to leave off the subsequent two sentences which really bring this concept to life. I am sure this was not on purpose, and so I will quote them here for you:

Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." NIV

Obviously, only God can save us.

I agree that Jesus is teaching them that the way to salvation is through him but I also think he is condemning those who seek riches (worldy), Jesus repeately teaches them not to seek after earthly wealth but heavenly wealth. the WOF movement seems to have reversed that and thinks the function of the gospel is to provide them money. All through the NT Jesus asks his followers to give away their earthly wealth and not to be concerned with it.

 

[rocka21]

It appears from this quote that your motivation to believe God is money.

wrong.

That's a far cry from bribing believers with promises of worldly treasures for believing.

wrong again. never said that. Althou i do believe God prospers us. (a promise, not a bribe)

 

[Comprehend]

this is an easy one.

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

you see , these possessions had control over him. they had his heart.


23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

why would they ask this???? mabey, because they had money too?


26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

shall receive an hundredfold! looks like he was tring to give him MORE than what he already had.
30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

again, its not the amount, its the heart.



NEXT!

WRONG. Clearly the apostles did not have money. Nice try.

You think that verse 29 is talking about MONEY!!!! haaaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaa. oh, sheesh. honestly, Jesus is talking about a the reward of everlasting life which he says is a great deal more valuable than the earthly possessions they clearly gave away.

 

[rocka21]

I agree that Jesus is teaching them that the way to salvation is through him but I also think he is condemning those who seek riches (worldy), Jesus repeately teaches them not to seek after earthly wealth but heavenly wealth. the WOF movement seems to have reversed that and thinks the function of the gospel is to provide them money. All through the NT Jesus asks his followers to give away their earthly wealth and not to be concerned with it.

let me be the first to say, i don't support ALL WOF preachers. there are some ones that make me sick! come on tv. late at night and talk, money ,money, money!

i do firmly believe that if you seek after Heavenly wealth , that earthly wealth will follow, and you can do good with that wealth. NO?

if not,

what about the vatican? they have no wealth?

what about the mormons in vegas???? ( don't go there with me!:angel2

 

[Comprehend]

very true! i love this scripture!

my life does not consist of the things that i have. and i am very RICH towards God.

NEXT

uh. maybe you would like to actually address the scripture.

 

[Comprehend]

let me be the first to say, i don't support ALL WOF preachers. there are some ones that make me sick! come on tv. late at night and talk, money ,money, money!

i do firmly believe that if you seek after Heavenly wealth , that earthly wealth will follow, and you can do good with that wealth. NO?

if not,

what about the vatican? they have no wealth?

what about the mormons in vegas???? ( don't go there with me!:angel2

please tell us about mormons in vegas...

 

[rocka21]

WRONG. Clearly the apostles did not have money. Nice try.

You think that verse 29 is talking about MONEY!!!! haaaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaa. oh, sheesh. honestly, Jesus is talking about a the reward of everlasting life which he says is a great deal more valuable than the earthly possessions they clearly gave away.

lets look at Marks gospel.



21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

again, this young man TRUSTED IN RICHES. WOF does not teach you to do that.

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.




what does " in this time" mean to you.

he was tring to give him more. not take away anything from him. if he would have just gave it up first, he would have got it back and then some. NO?

 

[rocka21]

please tell us about mormons in vegas...

please tell me that the mormons possess NO wealth and have given EVERYTHING they have to the poor.

please o please tell me this........

 

[rocka21]

uh. maybe you would like to actually address the scripture.

i just did.


seek god first and ALL THESE THINGS will be added to you.

i seek god and god supplies my needs.

 

[rocka21]

you see my friends,

this mormon, and many other christians live in this " La, La" land.

Even thou they live in the " RICHEST " country on earth. They have more " material things" than about %90 of the rest of the people on the planet.

they pull these scriptures out and throw them at the WOF people and "act" like they walk aroung in robes and have no bank account. They like to " act" poor, and hide there riches.

i on the other hand have no problem with riches. Solomon was the richest man on earth. Job was rich, David was rich, Abraham was rich. And look at this....

Matthew 27:57
When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:


now how did that get into the bible??? a RICH disciple. Yeah, read it again, then again , then again, until you get that poverty mentality out of your mind and realize that the more money you have, the more good you can do with it.

thats why we have TV stations spreading the gospel, mega churches, missionarys, feed the poor. ect, ect. its because we HAVE some MONEY AND CAN DO GODS WORK WITH IT.

and again, all you who think riches is of the devil. GO TODAY and EMPTY your bank account. dont go to work. just get enought for food and water, goodwill clothes, and a cardbord box to live in. Until then.......... don't throw stones.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I am not sure why you feel that anyone who disagrees with you has to be bankrupt, though I would rather be financially bankrupt than morally so. I will keep believing the scriptures and disbelieving you.