Wiccan growth.

[Mike182]

I would probably be Wiccan. But I like rules and order too much. It's the direction humanity likes to take in general. It's what causes things to function. But out of curiousity, what stops Joe Schmo from changing the definitions/spirituality of Wicca? At some point I'm thinking you would have to tell him something like "That's not Wicca!" See what I mean.

i think that anyone who wants to call their beliefs wiccan has the right to, no matter what their actual beliefs are, no matter if i agree with them or not, i will never say someone does not have the right to claim they are wiccan
- it really is a free religion

 

[Quiddity]

i think that anyone who wants to call their beliefs wiccan has the right to, no matter what their actual beliefs are, no matter if i agree with them or not, i will never say someone does not have the right to claim they are wiccan
- it really is a free religion

I wasn't talking about whether someone has the "right" to. I was looking for how far can you stretch the goal posts before it's unrecongizable as Wicca. Can I believe in literally anything and call myself Wiccan?

 

[turk179]

Again I agree with Mike( I really gotta stop saying that) but a common focal point among Wiccans is the Wiccan Rede. This is from Wikipedia:
Rede Of The Wiccae Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones: Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust. Live an’ let live - Fairly take an’ fairly give. Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out. To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme. Soft of eye an’ light of touch - Speak little, listen much. Deosil go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune. Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, An’ the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane. When the Lady’s Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two. When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heart’s desire seek. Heed the Northwind’s mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail. When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth. When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast. When the West wind blows o’er thee, Departed spirits restless be. Nine woods in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick an’ burn them slow. Elder be ye Lady’s tree - Burn it not or cursed ye’ll be. When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane fires burn. When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log an’ let Pan rule. Heed ye flower bush an’ tree - By the Lady Blessèd Be. Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone an’ truth ye’ll know. When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed. With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend. Merry meet an’ merry part - Bright the cheeks an’ warm the heart. Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad an’ three times good. When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow. True in love ever be Unless thy lover’s false to thee. Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - An’ it harm none, Do what ye will. The poem has since been very widely circulated and has appeared in other versions, with additional or variant passages.
Now if I am not mistaken, there was an attempt to organize the religion back in 1974. I believe the group was called The Council of American Witches, but I don't know much about them.

 

[Mike182]

Now if I am not mistaken, there was an attempt to organize the religion back in 1974. I believe the group was called The Council of American Witches, but I don't know much about them.

you are not mistaken, and they got really far in their endevours

here's my favourite version of the rede:

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm

its a lot more flowing than the one you posted

 

[turk179]

I wasn't talking about whether someone has the "right" to. I was looking for how far can you stretch the goal posts before it's unrecongizable as Wicca. Can I believe in literally anything and call myself Wiccan?

Well you could but most people would probably laugh at you. I would say that if you are in a used car lot worshiping the tire rack as your new deity then you have probably crossed the invisible Wiccan line:biglaugh:. I would have to say if you believe in the dual nature of the divine possibly coming from The One or The All and you celebrate the 8 Sabbats and the esbats and you feel a deep connection with nature, then you might be a redne...err Wiccan. In my opinion it is all open to interpretation.

 

[turk179]

you are not mistaken, and they got really far in their endevours

here's my favourite version of the rede:

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm

its a lot more flowing than the one you posted

I wish I had seen that one before. That is nice. Thanks for the link.

 

[Pardus]

It won't unless it becomes a religion of the masses.
A religion of the masses is one that involves the rules being set out for you.

 

[Mike182]

It won't unless it becomes a religion of the masses.
A religion of the masses is one that involves the rules being set out for you.

im inclined to agree with that

 

[Evenstar]

Yes I think it will... but not in my life time sadly.

 

[Fluffy]

I dunno. If it does I hope it takes the route that Christianity has in more recent years ie far more liberal and unorganised.

To answer Victor's question: I believe there are limits to which Wicca must be contained. You can certainly talk about what most Wiccans believe on certain issues and then put this generalisation forward as some sort of structure.

However, these limits are far wider than with other religions to the extent that you rarely get a situation arising where somebody as beliefs that fall outside those limits who also wants to describe themselves as Wiccan. They would just not wish to be associated with the other kind of beliefs that are associated with it.

Wicca teaches that there are many paths to the divine. Some people interpret this to mean that all paths are equally valid whilst others believe that there are very few paths but it seems many compared to the standard one path offered in other religions. For example, I do not believe that somebody who felt that the goddess had asked him to commit serial rape would be a Wiccan since that belief is so contradictive with other beliefs that are generally held by Wiccans. The conclusion, therefore, is that there is a small core of beliefs which are required for someone to be a Wiccan. I would only feel comfortable about putting two forward however: belief in a god and goddess (although extent of worship to each will vary) and the belief "An it harm none, do what ye will" which, again, has a variety of interpretations, all of which are equally Wicca.

 

[Quiddity]

I dunno. If it does I hope it takes the route that Christianity has in more recent years ie far more liberal and unorganised.

To answer Victor's question: I believe there are limits to which Wicca must be contained. You can certainly talk about what most Wiccans believe on certain issues and then put this generalisation forward as some sort of structure.

However, these limits are far wider than with other religions to the extent that you rarely get a situation arising where somebody as beliefs that fall outside those limits who also wants to describe themselves as Wiccan. They would just not wish to be associated with the other kind of beliefs that are associated with it.

Wicca teaches that there are many paths to the divine. Some people interpret this to mean that all paths are equally valid whilst others believe that there are very few paths but it seems many compared to the standard one path offered in other religions. For example, I do not believe that somebody who felt that the goddess had asked him to commit serial rape would be a Wiccan since that belief is so contradictive with other beliefs that are generally held by Wiccans. The conclusion, therefore, is that there is a small core of beliefs which are required for someone to be a Wiccan. I would only feel comfortable about putting two forward however: belief in a god and goddess (although extent of worship to each will vary) and the belief "An it harm none, do what ye will" which, again, has a variety of interpretations, all of which are equally Wicca.

That clear things a bit. As you have noted that the boundaries of Wicca are large enough for person to rome free. My focus was in finding a mechanism that could clarify/assist a fellow Wiccan from stepping out of the boundary. Thanks Fluffy.

~Victor

 

[jeffrey]

I believe the love of earth has such an appeal to it. More in touch with nature. The less bounderies, the less squabbling. To me, it looks at a different aspect of God and all his creations. Pure love. :jam:

 

[Quiddity]

Out of curiousity, since you brought it up Jefferey. Does Love have boundaries? Here let me start a thread so we won't go off topic.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=330365#post330365

 

[Smoke]

I doubt that Wicca will ever be as big as Christianity -- or Islam -- is now. Those religions became as large as they are by gaining enough power to oppress adherents of other religions. I don't imagine Wiccans seeking that kind of power or misusing it the way Christians and Muslims have.

On the other hand, it's possible that Wicca could continue to grow, and Christianity and Islam could dwindle, until the religions had more or less the same number of adherents.

 

[Quiddity]

Those religions became as large as they are by gaining enough power to oppress adherents of other religions.

You know, I hear this much too often and most always let it go because trying to explain or shine some light on the issue is long-winded. But in short I think if you read alot of the details behind Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monotheletism, Iconoclasm, Gnostism, etc. you would see it in a different light. Why? Because it was hardly as many people like to paint. It was usually an idea/belief [not a religion] that crept into the Church and was rejected. That was pretty much it. Granted there were politics and bad things that happened from both inside and outside the Church. But making a generalization like this does not give a full picture of how it was.

~Victor

 

[jeffrey]

Victor, there is some truth to what he's saying. Look at the witch hunts. Even today I have to drive my wife 30 some odd miles to buy a Wiccan book because of the possible back lash in our town.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, there is some truth to what he's saying. Look at the witch hunts. Even today I have to drive my wife 30 some odd miles to buy a Wiccan book because of the possible back lash in our town.

No doubt there is truth in it Jefferey. As I hope you know that I'm not one to cover something up if it makes my Church look bad. That's just me. But the good far out weighs the bad IMO. So when you hear a generalization being said all the time, people to get a clouded view. Forgetting of the beauties and focusing on the Crusades.

 

[Smoke]

You know, I hear this much too often and most always let it go because trying to explain or shine some light on the issue is long-winded. But in short I think if you read alot of the details behind Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monotheletism, Iconoclasm, Gnostism, etc. you would see it in a different light. Why? Because it was hardly as many people like to paint. It was usually an idea/belief [not a religion] that crept into the Church and was rejected. That was pretty much it. Granted there were politics and bad things that happened from both inside and outside the Church. But making a generalization like this does not give a full picture of how it was.

No, it doesn't. When I said "other religions," that's what I meant: Jews, Zoroastrians, Pagans, etc. I wasn't even thinking of the rivalry and bloodshed among different kinds of Christians and among different kinds of Muslims.

However, the statment: "It was usually an idea/belief [not a religion] that crept into the Church and was rejected. That was pretty much it," is just outright false. If it had been only a matter of rejecting ideas within the Church, and allowing those outside the Church to follow their own path (and allowing people to leave the Church in the first place), we wouldn't have had the Thirty Years' War, the Inquisition, witchcraft trials, blasphemy trials, expulsions of Jews, etc.

Muslims often (not always) systematically oppressed Christians and Jews. But a surprisingly small number of Christian martyrs were killed by Muslims, and most of them sought out martyrdom. On the other hand, hundreds of thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians have died in religious persecutions at the hands of Roman Catholics, as have tens of thousands of Protestants and other "heretics." Hundreds if not thousands of Catholics have died in the same way at the hands of Protestants. That's without even counting the dead of the Wars of Religion. Hundreds of thousands died in the Crusades, and hundreds of thousands more in the Thirty Years' War -- millions if you count those who died of disease and starvation.

Besides outright religious agression, there was the oppression and enslavement of Eastern Europeans and Africans by both Christians and Muslims, and the oppression of women in countries that became Christian or Muslim (as in Ireland, where women enjoyed far greater rights before the coming of Christianity than after).

 

[jeffrey]

Victor, I totally agree, the good still outweighs the bad.

 

[Smoke]

Victor, I totally agree, the good still outweighs the bad.

How so? I mean, it takes a lot of monks copying manuscripts and nuns nursing the sick to outweigh millions of people killed.