Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[Flat Earth Kyle]

that's funny. it was legal to own a slave once...
laws change.


so god wants perfectly trained animals....


romans 1:18,19


well it's a continual theme in the bible. where in the bible does it say god trusts our capacity for righteousness... ? gen 8:21 says we are evil...and we will continue to be evil...

God's laws don't change.

When your kids misbehave, do they get punished?


NATURAL MAN
See also Born Again, Born of God; Carnal; Fall of Adam and Eve.
A person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.

"19For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."
~Mosiah 3:19

 

[waitasec]

God's laws don't change.

enoch.

When your kids misbehave, do they get punished?

yes because they KNOW. if they were innocent, meaning not knowing no they will not be punished i would sit down and have a talk with them explaining why it's not wise to be doing such things...god is an awful parent.

NATURAL MAN
See also Born Again, Born of God; Carnal; Fall of Adam and Eve.
A person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.

"19For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."
~Mosiah 3:19

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

 

[DandyAndy]

If God is benevolent, why is he sending anyone to Hell when He doesn't have to?

And don't say anything about "consequences". God created the world, and so therefore He's responsible for the way it operates.

Ok, God doesn't send people to Hell. People are condemned to Hell because of their sin - God offered them a pardon and they refused it - so they suffer the consequences, AKA punishment.

Don't tell me what I can and cannot say - choice and consequence is a huge part of what this is all about. God created a perfect world and He created perfect people (Adam and Eve). THEY made the world corrupt by allowing sin into it - which was a CONSEQUENCE of their choice. Choice and consequence are huge themes in Christianity along with most other religions as well.

The beauty of Christianity is that one choice (Christ) can overcome all the other bad choices we make.

 

[waitasec]

Ok, God doesn't send people to Hell. People are condemned to Hell because of their sin - God offered them a pardon and they refused it - so they suffer the consequences, AKA punishment.

who created hell?

 

[waitasec]

The beauty of Christianity is that one choice (Christ) can overcome all the other bad choices we make.

i personally think it is morally wrong to offer up ones responsibility and culpability

 

[DandyAndy]

then you don't see what i trying to get at.
an ant isn't you. an ant has a limited capcity of fully understanding you...
do you care? my guess is no.

I do not care about an ant. Why should I?

God DOES care about us. Why should He? He shouldn't - but He does anyway.

We can understand enough about God, why do we have to understand everything? As humanity we don't understand everything about anything.

just like a bunch of people fully understand mohammed
this is a subjective POV. not an empirical experience

nature has proven itself indifferent.

Huh? I don't understand your point about Mohammed. You speak about not being able to fully understand God above, but then about some fully understanding Mohammed.

Nature is a result of God's handiwork/craftsmanship. He has revealed Himself through it. What does natures indifference have to do with anything?

so why do you do it?

What? Single out one aspect of God while ignoring the rest to make a point? When?

if you are willing to live with the idea god is a contradiction good for you.

I don't see a contradiction. But we can agree to disagree of course.

 

[PolyHedral]

Ok, God doesn't send people to Hell. People are condemned to Hell...

By who or what?

The beauty of Christianity is that one choice (Christ) can overcome all the other bad choices we make.

Then God is not just.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

enoch.


yes because they KNOW. if they were innocent, meaning not knowing no they will not be punished i would sit down and have a talk with them explaining why it's not wise to be doing such things...god is an awful parent.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

How and when did God's laws change in the instance of Enoch?

Okay, unfortunately, when a baby, who is innocent, jumps off a sky scraper it usually dies as a consequence/punishment of its own actions in attempting to break the law of gravity. Man can not be saved in ignorance.

Check this video out. I think it describes God's Justice and Mercy really well.
If you watch it you will see how God is just and how the laws of both Justice and Mercy can both be met
without canceling each other out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTMWVpzx4M

 

[DandyAndy]

who created hell?

God. He created it for Satan and his followers. The rebels.

 

[DandyAndy]

By who or what?

Their own sin breaks the law - God is the judge, He carries out the sentence. If there is no crime, there is no punishment. If there is crime, there is punishment.

Then God is not just.

Is a pardon just? God is merciful.

 

[DandyAndy]

i personally think it is morally wrong to offer up ones responsibility and culpability

If the offer is extended to you and freely offered, I see no problem.

 

[PolyHedral]

Their own sin breaks the law - God is the judge, He carries out the sentence. If there is no crime, there is no punishment. If there is crime, there is punishment.

But he is also the lawmaker. In other words, he is judge, jury and executioner. This is rather unbalanced, isn't it?

Is a pardon just? God is merciful.

So why not pardon everyone?

 

[waitasec]

I do not care about an ant. Why should I?

God DOES care about us. Why should He? He shouldn't - but He does anyway.

and how do you presume to KNOW that?

We can understand enough about God, why do we have to understand everything? As humanity we don't understand everything about anything.

i think the only way to grow is to know your limitations...
if you believe you have arrived what else is there?

Huh? I don't understand your point about Mohammed. You speak about not being able to fully understand God above, but then about some fully understanding Mohammed.

you said

you are making an erroneous assumption that we, as humans, cannot understand God's presence - a bunch of people fully understood the presence of Jesus, who was God, and others in the OT fully understood God's presence when they were in it (like Moses at the burning bush).

it is a subjective understanding...it doesn't hold water.
there are many many different religions all claiming to be the right religion.

Nature is a result of God's handiwork/craftsmanship. He has revealed Himself through it. What does natures indifference have to do with anything?

edit:
it contradicts gods benevolence.

What? Single out one aspect of God while ignoring the rest to make a point? When?

here...

God DOES care about us. Why should He? He shouldn't - but He does anyway.

I don't see a contradiction. But we can agree to disagree of course.

as long as you do not infringe your religious beliefs on others inalienable rights.

 

[waitasec]

If the offer is extended to you and freely offered, I see no problem.

read what i said.



i'll spell it out to you..
it is morally wrong to not take responsibility for ones actions.

 

[DandyAndy]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before the fruit, I agree. God told them about the consequences of eating the fruit - namely death. I didn't really follow what you were saying - I'm not saying it was right or wrong - I just didn't follow it. Sorry.

so god wants perfectly trained animals....

Nope. He wants people to choose Him - love is a choice.

romans 1:18,19


well it's a continual theme in the bible. where in the bible does it say god trusts our capacity for righteousness... ? gen 8:21 says we are evil...and we will continue to be evil...

I don't see anything about questioning in Romans 1 - read to the end of the chapter and it seems he is talking about the wicked being given up the what they want - the result of their choices.

 

[DandyAndy]

But he is also the lawmaker. In other words, he is judge, jury and executioner. This is rather unbalanced, isn't it?

So why not pardon everyone?

I don't see how it is unbalanced. He doesn't change the rules as He goes along.

Because the wicked and the righteous do not deserve the same fate - that would be unjust.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

well I feel completely ignored....
and that video really is awesome.

[youtube]9VTMWVpzx4M[/youtube]
‪Mormon Doctrine: The Mediator - Mormon Theology‬‏ - YouTube

 

[waitasec]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before the fruit, I agree. God told them about the consequences of eating the fruit - namely death. I didn't really follow what you were saying - I'm not saying it was right or wrong - I just didn't follow it. Sorry.

telling someone who is innocent doesn't understand what consequences mean, so it was useless to tell adam of the consequence of death...
unless god holds innocence accountable.

Nope. He wants people to choose Him - love is a choice.

love is not depended on it being reciprocated

I don't see anything about questioning in Romans 1 - read to the end of the chapter and it seems he is talking about the wicked being given up the what they want - the result of their choices.

"19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...."
a fallacy no less...
since it's plain to them why question?

 

[DandyAndy]

read what i said.


i'll spell it out to you..
it is morally wrong to not take responsibility for ones actions.

Christ offering me a pardon and paying the debt I owe isn't shedding responsibility - I don't think it is anyway. I'm still responsible for what I did, but I'm not responsible for serving the punishment, because Christ served it for me. He had mercy on me because of his great love for me.

I'm not just throwing my hands up and saying 'I didn't do anything.' I'm taking responsibility by admitting what I did (repentance) and asking for forgiveness, and through Christ I am being forgiven. Sounds beautiful to me, not morally wrong.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Christ offering me a pardon and paying the debt I owe isn't shedding responsibility - I don't think it is anyway. I'm still responsible for what I did, but I'm not responsible for serving the punishment, because Christ served it for me. He had mercy on me because of his great love for me.

I'm not just throwing my hands up and saying 'I didn't do anything.' I'm taking responsibility by admitting what I did (repentance) and asking for forgiveness, and through Christ I am being forgiven. Sounds beautiful to me, not morally wrong.

Beautifully stated.

Heavenly Father demands Justice, Christ pays the price of that Justice and we then become indebted to him, thus both mercy and justice can exist. Hey thats what the whole video talks about. Have you seen it before?